2 crazy plays I made today, and my thinking

fireman664 · #1 05-24-2005, 05:16 PM

Preflop raiser is probably a 2+2er.no real reads on the other players, but 3 of us at the table were under 20% VP$P, and the rest were over 40%....good table huh.

planned to fold to a bet (unless the raiser bet, and everyone just came along for one on the flop)...then I changed gears due to the way it played out...evaluate.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, CO raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: (7 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, Hero raises, CO folds, SB calls, UTG folds.

River: (12 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 12 BB

hand #2
villan is 49%/20% AF 3+ 45% showndown.
took some notes on him because he was involved in so many pots

"4 bet JQo from the button preflop....if he is in until the river, he seems to lead out with a donk bet EVERY time. called river bet from LP with J high on str and flush board"

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

2 unusual hands for me...evaluate.

Thanks
resluts later if anyone wants them

damaniac · #2 05-24-2005, 05:27 PM

Hand 1 looks pretty standard, although I think I'd like a river bet...you think he'll call with AK/AQ here? With the board tripped up, I think he might a lot of the time, and I think he has that more often than a PP. Wouldn't be horrible to bet that flop sometimes either, although if you are the best and CO doesn't often raise with overs, your hand is so vulnerable that you're kind of screwed when everyone calls getting a gillion to 1.

Hand 2
Given the blind-steal nature of the hand and your specific notes on the player, seems fine. Obviously not the best line against other players, but if he'll bet anything on the river and call with his bluff, "just to keep you honest", I don't see the problem with raising the river.

Also, lately when I get called preflop by just the blind, I'll get bet into by a lot of stuff, and it usually folds to my raise. So they either love to take a stab with nothing, or bet with a piece and then fold when I show I "have the goods" (probably the first one). So yeah, I would often consider raising a less crazy villain here too.

Edit: Hand 1, didn't notice it was SB you were against, not the PFR. Like the river check a bit more now.

fireman664 · #3 05-24-2005, 05:33 PM

yea, in hand 1 I wasnt sure if the SB was sitting there waiting to C/R the original raiser on the flop, and missed his chance, or if he was taking a stab with AX. I thought there was a chance I was good, and that a raise would limit the field behind me.

mtdoak · #4 05-24-2005, 05:37 PM

hand #1. I don't like the turn raise. Yes, you cleared out alot of overcards by raising, but I don't see him calling with less than a 9 here.

Hand #2. Raising the river here is just silly, even against a donk. If he slowplayed a flush, your going to get 3 bet. If he made some shitty two pair, your beat. Even if he just has a raggedy ace he's calling. IMHO, a raise gains you very little.

damaniac · #5 05-24-2005, 05:40 PM

Yeah but he'll fold overs sometimes right? He may bet overcards or something along those lines fairly often, and it'd be real nice to get him to fold them. Or get a free showdown.

fireman664 · #6 05-24-2005, 05:44 PM

do you not sometimes play with some REALLY bad players? (these were btw)
hand #1 is either fold or raise IMO

on hand 2, before this hand, I woulda totally agreed with your logic, but after watching him donk bet the river with bottom pair about 6 times(he was getting called) I really felt like I had some value in getting a raise in there. Not sure what I do if he 3 bets it though.

results in white
#1... my 33 held up against A10
#2..MHIG when he shows 10x to be outkicked

mtdoak · #7 05-24-2005, 05:52 PM

Hand #1 I do call down. No way i'm putting an extra bet in there, however.

Hand #2. Even donks make hands once in a while. He may be thinking that if he does that all the time he'll get paid off when he does have a hand. I really don't think raising gains you anything here.

Your treading the dangerous line of being results oriented IMHO. Small Stakes Poker is about making +EV moves over an infinite sample of hands. Yes, in those paticular situations vs those opponents, you ended up making the right move. However, given the same situation again vs a different set of similar opponents, I would be suprised if your results were the same.

fireman664 · #8 05-24-2005, 06:00 PM

I do agree with you, especially on the river raise. That is a play that I NEVER make (my AF is too low as it is on the river, and is a leak of mine)

that said, I felt really strong in my read in this particular situation. however, you maybe right that it has a -EV even with those strong reads....its just that when he donk bet, I was REALLY sure he had nothing, thinking he would have C/R a good hand. When he called my raise I thought "oh boy, that sure was stupid..."till the pot came my way [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

ps: results not withstanding, I liked my 33 play.

Thanks for the discussion

cmwck · #9 05-24-2005, 05:45 PM

hand #1:
looks good. You raise because you may have the best hand, and you'll take a free showdown.

Hand #2:
The way you played it, I don't think raising the river is a good idea. If he donk bets the river a lot, then you have lots of opportunities to catch it by just calling. If he has garbage with a heart, I doubt he'll call the raise.

Also, since he is so aggressive, you could take advantage of the monotone flop by letting him bluff all the way to the river. (check-call).

You could also call the flop, raise the turn, then check-call the river.

brettbrettr · #10 05-24-2005, 10:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (14 SB) 7, 7, 9 (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: (7 BB) 7 (7 players)
SB bets, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, Hero raises, CO folds, SB calls, UTG folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You raise because you may have the best hand, and you'll take a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have I gone nuts here? Free showdown? 3 high?