Fastplay top set?

[QBert]

This is from Party 5/10. BB is slightly laggy, MP2 is a straightforward player. SB is a very loose calling station.

Hero has the button with Qc Qd.

UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: 3c 2s Qs. SB checks, BB bets, UTG folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: 3h. BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP2 folds.

River: 9d. BB checks, Hero bets, BB folds.

Was the flop raise correct as it appears BB was on a spade draw or would it be more +EV to wait for no spade to drop on the turn, then raise the turn (should he or MP2 bet it)?

[xCEO]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero has the button with Qc Qd.

UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before I read any further. You didn't raise preflop???

[QBert]

No, with 2 limpers and extremely loose players in the blinds I just limped as a raise would not eliminate any players.

[Moozh]

[ QUOTE ]
This is from Party 5/10. BB is slightly laggy, MP2 is a straightforward player. SB is a very loose calling station.

Hero has the button with Qc Qd.

UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

[/ QUOTE ]
What the hell? No excuse!

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: 3c 2s Qs. SB checks, BB bets, UTG folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: 3h. BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP2 folds.

River: 9d. BB checks, Hero bets, BB folds.


[/ QUOTE ]
The rest looks fine. You raise when you have a strong hand, it's that simple. If you want to mix it up, raise lighter, don't try and slowplay.

[Moozh]

[ QUOTE ]
No, with 2 limpers and extremely loose players in the blinds I just limped as a raise would not eliminate any players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you trying to eliminate players?

[xCEO]

[ QUOTE ]
No, with 2 limpers and extremely loose players in the blinds I just limped as a raise would not eliminate any players.


[/ QUOTE ]

LEAK [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[QBert]

Because QQ does not play well with a lot of other players. If a K or A flops, many opponents increases the chance of one of them having flopped top pair. Also, in larger pots an unimproved pair will rarely win.

I also prefer to disguise my hands sometimes by not raising preflop. Combined with the reasons above I believe it is not a bad play to limp with this hand on the button.

[QBert]

I feel like I didn't make as much from this hand as I could have.

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to mix it up, raise lighter, don't try and slowplay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you suggesting that I do slowplay or I don't? I didn't slowplay but it sounds like you are suggesting that I should have.

[Moozh]

[ QUOTE ]
Because QQ does not play well with a lot of other players. If a K or A flops, many opponents increases the chance of one of them having flopped top pair. Also, in larger pots an unimproved pair will rarely win.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is very flawed thinking. Let me try to explain why.

Think about it this way. Pre-flop, QQ will eventually go on to win a certain percentage of the time. Thus, you can think of your equity in terms of that percentage of the pot.

If your equity is more than your equal share of the pot, you gain money by raising. For example:

Say vs 2 other players, your queens will win 2/3 of the time. Thus, if one bet goes in from each of you, you can claim 2 bets as yours. If you raise and 6 bets go in, you claim 4 bets as yours. Raising just gained you a bet (since it cost you 1 bet to raise).

Now let's extrapolate to a hand where there are more players. Let's say it's 8 ways and your queens can only expect to win 37.5% of the time. Obviously you'll be losing a lot more often. Still, let's take a look. With one bet in by all 8 people, your share of the pot is 3 bets. That's [more] than your share with just 3 of you, even though you expect to lose the pot way more often. Now, if you raise here, the pot goes to 16 bets, and your share becomes 6 bets. The raise gained you 2 bets. That's twice as much as the raise gained you with fewer people, even though you now expect to lose over half the time.

Thus, when we say raise, it's not to scare people out of the pot and protect your hand, it's to get more money in the pot so you stand to win more when your hand holds up. Since you have an equity advantage, you gain money when the pot size increases.

[ QUOTE ]
I also prefer to disguise my hands sometimes by not raising preflop. Combined with the reasons above I believe it is not a bad play to limp with this hand on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you want to raise your game to a higher level, start disguising your hands by raising more often with worse hands, not less often with good hands. By raising more often, you have the chance of winning more pots uncontested as well as winning larger pots when your hand does hold up.

[Frequitude]

Excellent post Moozh. The first part is spot on. You're raising preflop here for value. QQ will win more on average than the other hands that are probably coming in with you. So you stand to make money from every additional bet that goes into the pot. Yes, sometimes they will get cracked by junk, or run into a bigger PP, but on average QQ is clearly a profitable hand. Get the money in there while you can.


The second part is even more spot on. I haven't been here in a while, but this is the best advice to weaker players I've seen in a while..."start disguising your hands by raising more often with worse hands, not less often with good hands."