KK 40-80 question

mike l. · #1 05-23-2005, 01:42 PM

live game super good, not online. i have KK in the cutoff, a guy who seems to be pretty good limps early, a couple fish limp, i raise, sb calls, bb who is medicore and can be lag 3 bets, others call, i flat call because im looking to make a move on the flop or turn to get some people out and/or build a huger pot. sb calls. 6 of us i think.

the flop is QQ3. bb bets, ep decent auto-calls. i spend about 45 seconds staring him down. he acts really uncomfortable. he gives off the looking away tell. i have an angry look on my face, with my fat freaky face that's a pretty scary thing. i look angry because i am angry. im angry cause i just know he has something like QJ or KQ. i call. sb folds. 3 of us.

the turn is a 5. bb auto-checks, ep quickly bets, now he really gives it off, he looks down in some bag he has with him like suddenly finding some tic tacs or something is the most important thing in the world. he's really really trying to hide his face. it's awesome. i feel glad because im about to save $160 and i muck.

did i save $160?

Renaud Desferet · #2 05-23-2005, 01:56 PM

I say no and I am right.
As Tom left a few years ago, and as Andrew probably did, someone has to.
Next thread.

Paluka · #3 05-23-2005, 02:14 PM

Your turn fold seems good given your read, but not capping preflop smells real bad.

anatta · #4 05-23-2005, 02:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
did i save $160?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are right, I think you saved about $100 (just made it up) by folding a two outter (22:1) in a pot that will grow to 15 big bets and even more if you hit. If he has KQ, then probably more like $140.

mike l. · #5 05-23-2005, 03:23 PM

i like your answer. maybe it was a bad fold.

mike l. · #6 05-23-2005, 03:32 PM

"not capping preflop smells real bad."

i never do that, btw, not capping it there preflop.

here's what i was dreading: i cap it preflop, they all call and then they all check to me on the flop (this is like
90%+ certain to happen with this field) and i bet and they are getting the right price to call w/ basically ANYTHING. players who should checkraise me on the flop dont, they just call. players who should into me on the flop dont either. they just check call. so i build a bigger pot preflop but put myself in a situation where i can do nothing to protect my hand from what will now be a drawfest free for all against 5 other players in a huge pot.

so i thought to just call this time and if the flop was one i liked a lot (i.e.: not too draw heavy) i would raise the flop after bb inevitably bet (will happen every time basically), and if it was one i didnt like i would wait until the turn and raise then to charge the draws the most with only one card left and clear out the riff raff if possible. reserving the right to fold if it's an A high flop and there's a bet and a raise to me.

but maybe i was overthinking things and shouldve just capped preflop because my position vs. bb 3 bettor sucks so all that tactical raising wont get anyone out, theyll be priced in one bet at a time. maybe my whole approach, this whole playing big pots tactically thing, needs to be rethought.

andyfox · #7 05-23-2005, 03:52 PM

You would certainly know better than we would, but, FWIW, when you spent 45 seconds staring him down he would know you didn't have a queen, so his bet on the turn is de rigeur once the other guy checks. And since you didn't cap pre-flop, there's no way he puts you on an overpair. So he'd be betting a hand here, I would think, that you can beat.

BTW, good to see you back here.

elysium · #8 05-23-2005, 04:01 PM

hi mike

looks like you saved some money there. you might want to raise the flop here though if you suspect your opponent is acting.

Steve Giufre · #9 05-23-2005, 04:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You would certainly know beter than we would, but, FWIW, when you spent 45 seconds staring him down he would know you didn't have a queen, so his bet on the turn is de rigeur once the other guy checks. And since you didn't cap pre-flop, there's no way he puts you on an overpair. So he'd be betting a hand here, I would think, that you can beat.

BTW, good to see you back here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats pretty much my problem with it. he knows Mike doesnt have a Queen, and he certainly doesnt think he has a hand as big as KK either. If the BB is a goofcall and the limper knows it, could he be firing again with something like 77 or 88? I'm not sure. I think its close but on the turn you only need to be good like 20% of the time here assuming you have to call another bet on the river, and I think you might be. Welcome back.

mike l. · #10 05-23-2005, 04:11 PM

"You would certainly know beter than we would, but, FWIW, when you spent 45 seconds staring him down he would know you didn't have a queen, so his bet on the turn is de rigeur once the other guy checks. And since you didn't cap pre-flop, there's no way he puts you on an overpair. So he'd be betting a hand here, I would think, that you can beat."

yeah i was thinking that too and i think it has some validity for sure, but less than it might against a better player. i shouldve called this guy mediocre but instead i called him pretty good or something meaning he might be thinking about what i think he thinks i have and so on. my bad.

nevertheless even he who he is and what i knew there is some definite validity to what youre saying and even more so given the pot size. i mean what if the guy has 88?