I thought these were fish plays

[betgo]

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...amp;m_id=65551

Interesting explanation of the 10xBB open raise with AA and the check at limpers from BB with AK plays. I am not sure what is the big problem if you wind up playing AA or AK in a 4-handed raised pot. You just have to sometimes fold on the flop or turn.

[greg nice]

explain why these are fish plays.

[betgo]

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explain why these are fish plays.

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Well, you usually don't want to steal the blinds with AA. AK is pretty worthless in a 10-way limped pot. Raise the stakes and thin the field.

[emil3000]

Monster openraises are pretty standard in the microlimits. I would love to be able to make 10*BB openraises with AA and still get called.

[cero_z]

Hi betgo,

I agree with his AA play and I disagree with his rationale for the AK play, though checking *might* be a better play.

Clearly, you'd rather play AA against 1 player for 10 BBs, than against 4 players for 3BBs each. If you accept his premise that raises of those sizes will get those results, respectively, I think you must accept that a 10XBB raise is much better.

Though he doesn't like getting 4 callers for 12.5 BBs out of position with AK, I don't really mind it either, since the callers are likely idiots with a wide range of holdings. If you have bankroll issues, though, I can see why you'd prefer to check: raising big puts you in the position of having to play a big pot with a weak holding sometimes, which is not the largest edge you are likely to find in a game like this. But if losing a buy-in is no sweat to you, then what's the harm in it? The other side of that is that you may be able to elicit a bigger mistake from your opponents if you check the option; I doubt this, given the magnitude of the mistake they are probably making by calling you pre-flop.

Remember that he's talking about the low stakes NL games, where virtually everyone at the table is a guppie.

[gomberg]

I sort of agree w/ the AKo hand. The mistake preflop is not substantial unless they are calling with Ax. The only reason I like the raise is for shania reasons (don't want them to know it's a high pocket every time). I think preflop they aren't making too much of a mistake as much of their holdings will outflop AK a decent amount of the time. For this reason and the fact that if you hit, they won't put you on AK so you'll usually force more edge mistakes postflop.

[betgo]

If you play a 10-way pot with AK, the problem is that if you make TPTK how do you know it's good. It would be very easy for someone to make 2-pair. If the action is wild in this game, it will be very difficult to tell where you are at, and you might have to fold TPTK.

If you raise, you are going to narrow the field somewhat and make the money shallower. You could win a big pot against someone who limp/called with Ax or Kx.

Open raising to 20 with AA is OK if raises that big are generally getting called at that table, and your table image is such that your raises are likely to be called. You should proabably make as big a raise with AA as seems likely to be called (or play for a limpraise in certain situations). Raising to 20 seems to be pushing it, unless there are limpers already in the pot.

Usually, my tight table image causes me not to have a problem with getting too many callers for my raises. I usually play 2/5, but most 1/2 games I have been in have not been quite as loose as the one he describes.

[gomberg]

[ QUOTE ]
If you play a 10-way pot with AK, the problem is that if you make TPTK how do you know it's good. It would be very easy for someone to make 2-pair. If the action is wild in this game, it will be very difficult to tell where you are at, and you might have to fold TPTK.

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This is exactly the reason I don't like raising - as it bloats the pot with you out of position and everyone calls anyway. If it will narrow the field, then for sure raise - but the assumptions of this article are that most will gambooool and call the big raise.

As far as AA, I like raising big with them if limpers are in the pot, I'm on the button, or I'm in the blinds. If I'm opening, I'll make as big a raise as people are willing to call.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
This is exactly the reason I don't like raising - as it bloats the pot with you out of position and everyone calls anyway. If it will narrow the field, then for sure raise - but the assumptions of this article are that most will gambooool and call the big raise.


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OK, say you raise to 25 from the BB at the 20 pot and 9 limper and get 5 callers. There is 175 in the pot. Say you have 275 left and have most of your opponents covered. It seems to me that you can be willing to commit all your chips here with TPTK.

[gomberg]

that's true - but you're going to miss 2/3 of the time and your preflop edge isn't great (if you have some at all). You have to outflop any pocket pairs and your edge over other connectors is small. I think it just increases variance to raise here unless you think you'll get called by Ax or Kx hands - but with more than one player in the pot, it seems that you'll also get called by other types of hands.