4-handed KK play

riffraff · #1 12-08-2002, 02:56 AM

$.50/$1 Paradise

UTG limps, MP Raises, I'm next to act and 3-bet with K[img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]. everyone folds to BB who calls 2 bets more as does UTG. MP caps it, everyone calls.

I've played with MP before and he seems pretty reasonable although straightfoward and my first read on him is AA or (much less likely) KK or QQ.

Flop: T[img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

BB bets out, UTG calls, MP raises. I 3-bet it, again both BB and UTG call, MP1 caps it, everyone calls.

Turn: J[img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]

BB and UTG check, MP pauses a second then bets. What's your play? I am willing to put in one more bet considering the pot has grown pretty big, but will fold if there is any more action by the BB or UTG. They both call however and we see the river.

River: 3[img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]

BB and UTG check, MP checks, I check. (Does anyone bet this river 4-handed?)

Ed Miller · #2 12-08-2002, 03:07 AM

I don't see how you can bet the river here if you think that MP's most likely holding is AA. If you think MP is so predictable that a 4-bet means AA an overwhelming majority of the time, I think you should have even considered folding on the flop.

riffraff · #3 12-08-2002, 04:37 AM

On the read of the MP.. I didn't have any notes on him, but have played with him before a few times. I ususally write notes only when I see them do something odd (plays Kxs in EP, etc)

One thing I'm trying to do more of lately is get in someone else's head and think what THEY would do, what THEY would 4-bet with. On these straightfoward .50 tables I very rarely would 4-bet in his spot with anything less than KK or AA myself. Sometimes I expect others to play the same way as I do, which often is a mistake leading me to mis-read hands. I didn't want to make a mistake here that would cost me the entire pot when I had a pretty good hand, so I play my KK fast on the flop (since I think a flat call would be the worst play). When he caps the flop, I have serious concerns but can't fold here for one more sb. Once the turn comes another Jack and he bets again, perhaps my call was too loose based on the information gained to this point.

One thing about the river play, why would he bet the turn but not the river if he has AA? He is worried someone has a three? a jack? Seems like if someone had either in the BB and UTG that they would certainly bet the river, afraid that it would get checked through. So why does he check? If he has AA then he shouldn't be afraid of what I have.

So based on this, why didn't I bet on the river? I'm thinking that there is still a good chance he has AA and just chickened out because of the nasty looking board (this read enforced by his quirkly pause on the turn). I checked it through.

He had AA, both the BB and UTG had KQo and I was drawing almost dead on the flop.

I was wondering if a turn raise + river bet could have won this hand. I doubt it very much since my hand was well defined and AA is probably going to make me show him a jack. If I folded on the turn it would have only saved one bet. Hmm maybe this hand is pretty boring afterall [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Ed Miller · #4 12-08-2002, 04:47 AM

One thing about the river play, why would he bet the turn but not the river if he has AA? He is worried someone has a three? a jack?

That is precisely why he didn't bet the river. Bad players miss bets on the river all the time because they are unreasonably scared of the board/other players. You were right not to bet the river... he would have called. He also would have called you down had you raised the turn and bet the river. There was nothing you could have done to win this hand... you were drawing to one out the whole time.

riffraff · #5 12-08-2002, 05:05 AM

There was nothing you could have done to win this hand... you were drawing to one out the whole time.

Yeah I don't think there was any way to win the hand, which makes it quite boring indeed [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] And I was drawing dead to a runner-runner-straight (one of the two remaining queens plus an ace or nine) .. this for 1/3 of the pot.