For Krishan: Trips posts

KingOtter · #1 05-19-2005, 11:41 PM

Krishan and I had a bit of a debate about how often aggression shown on later streets will be trips.

He said that the OP in this post was good probably 80% of the time on the river and should raise. I didn't believe that statistic. He said it was right in that case, and I said I had 5 examples of him being wrong, and he said they would be different situations, post them and he'd let me know why.

So THE POINT OF THIS POST (as I see it, maybe he thinks something different) is to show instances where trips don't show aggression, or wait until late to do it. These all happened on the same day, during the same 2 hour session.

THIS IS NOT A WHINE POST!

One was posted here , but I'll repost it, with results.
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 4 folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls, Button folds.

Turn: (4 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (7 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG+2 raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ac Tc (two pair, tens and sixes).
UTG+2 has 6d 5c (three of a kind, sixes).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins 11 BB. 

Hand 2:
Owner has trips, calls down. This one never showed aggression.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, CO raises, 3 folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, CO calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, CO calls, UTG calls.

River: (8.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, CO calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has 6d Ac (three of a kind, sixes).
Hero has 8s 8d (two pair, eights and sixes).
CO has 3d 3s (two pair, sixes and threes).
Outcome: UTG wins 11.25 BB. 

Hand 3:
This receiver of trips checks through on the flop, and calls the rest of the way. I bet because I thought I had folding equity since I hadn't gotten any aggression back.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks.

Turn: (2.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls.

River: (4.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 6.75 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has 4d 9h (two pair, eights and fours).
CO has 8d Kd (three of a kind, eights).
Outcome: CO wins 6.75 BB. 

Hand 4:
Aggression on the turn rather than the river here, but still late aggression. I probably should have folded to the raise on this hand.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB folds, BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 folds, MP3 calls, Button calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP3 folds, Button raises, Hero calls.

River: (8.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Td Jd (two pair, tens and fives).
Button has Qs 5s (three of a kind, fives).
Outcome: Button wins 10.50 BB. 

That's the 4 of them from that day... I thought it was 5, but I can't find another one.

So... as to the evaluation as to whether these are the same thing... I think hand 1 is very similar to the other post, except I acted before villain. Hand 2 and 3 show no aggression with their trips, but I acted before them. Hand 4 showed turn aggression, to which I should probably have folded.

So is the story going to be if they check/call, check/call, bet, that Hero is 80% good? That's the main difference I see here.

KO

gvibes · #2 05-20-2005, 12:29 AM

[threadjack]Why are you still playing .5/1, KO? You've been here a while now, it seems...[/threadjack]

Hand 2 I may have checked the river. Hand 3 I would check/fold the river.

KingOtter · #3 05-20-2005, 08:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[threadjack]Why are you still playing .5/1, KO? You've been here a while now, it seems...[/threadjack]

Hand 2 I may have checked the river. Hand 3 I would check/fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bankroll issues... We moved, and we had to build out the basement in order for me to have a computer room, and between that and the move I had to take out about 75% of my bankroll. Then when I started to build it back up ran into a 120BB downturn.

I'm actually not even adequately bankrolled for .5/1 right now... [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

KO

krishanleong · #4 05-20-2005, 08:51 AM

Hand 1, this is different. I agree that when you are RAISED on the river you will often be shown trips. The original thread was a donkbet. It's a very specific bet with certain reads associated.

Hand 2, this is different. People check-call all the way to the river with rediculous hands. In the original thread Villian led the river. That makes it significantly different from this hand.

Hand 3, Same as hand 2.

Hand 4, This is different. This is the standard line with trips. Wait till the turn to raise or checkraise. This is part of the reason I think it's unlikely for the villian to have trips in the original hand. He would have check raising the turn.

This line taken by the villian in the original thread is a very unique line. Not common at all.

[ QUOTE ]
So... as to the evaluation as to whether these are the same thing... I think hand 1 is very similar to the other post, except I acted before villain. Hand 2 and 3 show no aggression with their trips, but I acted before them. Hand 4 showed turn aggression, to which I should probably have folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much. Everything would be different in the original thread if he check-raised the turn or check-raised the river. In either of those situation I'd say you are good maybe 25%.

Krishan Leong

KingOtter · #5 05-20-2005, 09:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty much. Everything would be different in the original thread if he check-raised the turn or check-raised the river. In either of those situation I'd say you are good maybe 25%.
Krishan Leong

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay... I was speaking to just general aggression, and you're speaking to the exact line he took... I can't say I can really speak to the check/call, check/call, bet line except it's a WA/WB line Hard for me to believe the villain in the other post would consider himself way behind with trips, though.

KO

krishanleong · #6 05-20-2005, 09:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't say I can really speak to the check/call, check/call, bet line except it's a WA/WB line Hard for me to believe the villain in the other post would consider himself way behind with trips, though.

KO

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly!! I'm saying I'm reasonably familiar with this line and it means we are ahead 80%.

Krishan

KingOtter · #7 05-20-2005, 09:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't say I can really speak to the check/call, check/call, bet line except it's a WA/WB line Hard for me to believe the villain in the other post would consider himself way behind with trips, though.

KO

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly!! I'm saying I'm reasonably familiar with this line and it means we are ahead 80%.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I'll give you this one... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Although there's still a nagging in the back of my head about the oodles and oodles of slow-players out there that like to call down to the river and then bet out. But I'll look out for it.. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

KO