Stud/8 Middle Pair to trips: Too passive, aggressive or just right?

[Hauser_III]

7 Card Stud High-Low ($1/$2), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $0.5 (hand converter)

Seat 1: ($64)
Seat 2: ($54.87)
Seat 3: ($48.37)
Seat 4: ($25.5)
Seat 5: ($45.59)
Hero: ($31.75)
Seat 7: ($53.13)
Seat 8: ($34.5)

3rd Street

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

<font color="red"> I hate bigger pairs in stud/8, and wonder if I should have raised here. My read on seat 3 is that he wouldn't raise with split K's with an A still to act after him, but once the A folded, should I have raised to try and thin the field? I think the answer is no, as my kicker is lower than his door card, there's at least two potential lows in the hand (three, if the bring-in also has a low), and my spade two-flush is comatose, if not dead, with 3 spades on the board. I don't think raising will thin the field at all, and 10's are not that big a pair. On the plus side, they're hidden.</font>

4th Street

Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 3: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

<font color="red"> Ok, now I need to find out if seat 2 has trip K's. Seat 7 has the only two-card low board, and I thought he would raise. I called, intending to raise if seat 2 merely called a raise from seat 7. Seat 7 didn't cooperate, though. Should I have just raised to begin with, or is my intention to raise misguided, and should I just be happy to call and wait for the betting on the big streets to provide more information about seat 2's hand?</font>

5th Street

Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

<font color="red"> Okay, now I'm convinced seat 2 doesn't have trips. He's not tricky enough to check trips. Fairly standard. </font>

6th Street

Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

River

Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___bets___raises___calls
Hero: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___folds

<font color="red"> 6th and 7th seem fairly standard to me. </font>

Results in white: <font color="white">

Seat 2: balance $41.12, lost $13.75 [ 5s 8s Ks Kd Qh 7s 6s ] [ a flush, king high -- Ks,8s,7s,6s,5s ]
Seat 3: balance $34.62, lost $13.75 [ 8c 8h 9s 3h 9d 2h 9c ] [ a full house, Nines full of eights -- 9s,9d,9c,8c,8h ]
Hero: balance $67, bet $13.75, collected $49, net +$35.25 [ Ts Td Qs Tc 2s Qd 6h ] [ a full house, Tens full of queens -- Qs,Qd,Ts,Td,Tc ] </font>

Anybody think I should have played 3rd or 4th differently? If you respond, please don't say anything about the results in your response. Thanks.

[LaggyLou]

I have not looked at the results.

I would not play TTQ in this spot in Stud/8. Having played, I think it's a must-raise on 4th.

nice hand.

[Hauser_III]

I normally wouldn't play (10 10) Q either, but the ante structure of this game forces me to play a little bit more aggressively. Believe me, I don't like it as a starting hand. It's clearly one that I only continue with if 4th hits me very well.

Another factor in my decision to play it was that the table was full of people that started with very, very marginal hands, such as (3Q)8.

[mscags]

I'm the sane way as you. I hate playing medium pairs in 8/B, but since you decided to play it here I think that limping was the right decision. Your hand isn't very strong and completing isn't going to thin the field in a 1-2 game. This is one of those hands you're looking to improve big time on fourth or jump ship. With that being said I think you played it fine from there on out. I probably would have raised fourth right away to see where I stand but I think planning to raise fifth is also a good plan. 6th and 7th are pretty standard. Nice hand.

[templar999]

hauser,

raise on fourth is a must.
1. you will have position on the pair of kings the rest of the hand.
2. you dont want 3/6 to develop or make a low behind you.

respectfully,
temp

[Andy B]

Third is a fold. Tens are garbage. Having a table full of extremely loose players doesn't make me like this hand any more. All pairs, even Aces with a small kicker, are better off short-handed. Unless you hit your set on fourth street, but that's 20:1 against.

As for the question of playing big pairs in late position, if I had a pair of live Kings in that spot, I would limp about every time.

Since you hit your miracle card on fourth, raise right away. If the other guy had split Kings on third, he would likely have raised, yes? You also want to give weak low draws a chance to fold. If 36 has a four-card low, he isn't going anywhere, obviously, but if he's paired, he should fold for two bets (he should probably fold for one bet, but some folks need convincing).

Other than that, the hand played itself. Nice hit. What the hell did the guy with the Nines think you were raising with?

[Hauser_III]

[ QUOTE ]
Third is a fold. Tens are garbage.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I played garbage, and I got lucky. I was bored of playing only correct starting hands and folding when I bricked, only to watch the crazies raise and call and scoop with a pair of j's caught on 6th. It was bad poker discipline that turned out well.

[Beavis68]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you hit your set on fourth street, but that's 20:1 against.


[/ QUOTE ]

How the hell did I miss this? I was still stuck in my flop game mindset and thinking 8:1. I had been playing some pairs for set value - but there is no point in doing that in this game.

Now I know why they kicker is so important. You have to be able to play your pair for a strong two pair to make it playable.

[bholdr]

i fold this on third. middle pairs do not do well in multiway pots, and a K has already called. (also, your hand is weak because of the exposed Q, which gives away that you're going high, and is really about the worst kicker you could have considering that K... and your spades are dead... it's just not playable, imo.)

[Andy B]

Well, if you hang around until sixth street, it's still about 8:1. Of course you have to call a bunch of bets in order to get there. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

A large chunk of any smaller pair's value lies in making a set. This includes hold'em, Omaha, stud, stud/8, pineapple, whatever. If you have start with pocket Sixes and jam after making something like (66)267, people are going to put you on a low hand. You'll drive out the weak low draws and the weaker high hands will stick with you, and you have an excellent chance of scooping a nice pot. This doesn't happen often, but when it does, it is enoromously profitable.

Now (66)2 is playable because, in addition to the high shot, you have a low shot, and you can frequently represent a very strong low hand even when you only have four to a low with your pair. And you can't play hands like this every time; you've got to pick your spots. You generally want to play for the bring-in (or raise as a steal), and definitely don't pay more than one bet. If there is a lot of action on third, it means you're probably behind in both directions, and that is bad news in this game.

Pocket Tens on the other hand can't make much except for a weak two pair or the occasional set. The odds are almost always to short to try to draw to hands like this. Bear in mind, for example, that the guy with the King in the door has a better chance of pairing his King than you do of making your set.

Damn hold'em players.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]