What do you think of this hand

[GooperMC]

Don't have the hand history with my so I am going to have to wing it.

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
4 callers, I call, SB folds, BB checks

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
check, check, villain1 bets, villain2 call, I raise, villian3 calls behind me, villian1 calls, villain2 calls, everyone else folds

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
villain1 bets, villain2 calls, I call, villain3 raises, villain 1 calls, villain2 calls, I call.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
check, check, check, villain3 bets, villain1 calls, villain2 calls, I fold

On the flop my raise was because I think that I have the best hand and I want to push out garbage draws. I would also like to see where I am at and I have good position (turns out I really wanted better position).

The turn turned my hand from a made hand to a drawing hand and I did have odds to draw until it was raised behind me.

I just felt like I got jerked around with this hand. I raised the flop to get in control of this hand and it felt like it backfired. A month ago I was playing too passively, have I flip-flopped and am now playing too aggressively?

[toots]

This looks like what I consider to be one of my per-session donkfests.

You missed both of your suits, you're not going to make a low, and someone else has a flush draw.

The best you got is top two pair, with a prayer that no one has trips (pretty good bet, given your top two pair and the flop). Trouble is that runner-runner low cards gives someone other than you half the pot, and runner-runner not-low cards gives someone other than you a straight, and any spade gives someone other than you a flush. You may have the best hand at the flop, but it's almost guaranteed to lose value quite rapidly on the turn/river.

I might be inclined, like you, to take a shot at the pot on the flop, if for nothing else to narrow the field, and with any luck, steal it right there.

The trouble is that no one folded, and even though the turn raised your outs to six, someone else no doubt is looking at nine (or more) outs for a flush or straight.

I'm still in my weak-tight stage. I might have raised on the flop, but when no one folded, I think I'd check/fold on the turn.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop my raise was because I think that I have the best hand and I want to push out garbage draws.


[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly did you think was a garbage draw that would call 1 bet but not 2 in this situation?

[GooperMC]

[ QUOTE ]
spade gives someone other than you a flush. You may have the best hand at the flop, but it's almost guaranteed to lose value quite rapidly on the turn/river

[/ QUOTE ]
Which is the reason I raised. In a large community pot almost every card scares me, however if I can get it HU or 3 way I am going to have good PE.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still in my weak-tight stage. I might have raised on the flop, but when no one folded, I think I'd check/fold on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Without the button raising the turn I had odds to draw to the boat. I had no illusions that my top 2 (err 3) were good I was drawing to the boat which I thought I had odds to do.

[GooperMC]

- A hand with a 9
- A gut shot
- A backdoor low draw
- ...

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
- A hand with a 9
- A gut shot
- A backdoor low draw
- ...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were playing against donks, they would call both 1 bet and 2. If you were playing against decent players, they would not call 1 bet.

[toots]

[ QUOTE ]
Without the button raising the turn I had odds to draw to the boat. I had no illusions that my top 2 (err 3) were good I was drawing to the boat which I thought I had odds to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah yeah, I see that now.

Duh.

Told you I was weak-tight.

[templar999]

gooper,

i'm with jedi. call or fold the flop. raising will not get villains 1 and 2 out and the only realistic chance you have to win the entire pot is heads up.

by my count, there are only 4 good cards for you in the entire deck, the aces and kings, assuming there's even an ace out there. there are only 2 more semi decent cards for you, the two offsuit queens. unfortunately, one of the semi decent cards came for you on the turn, and you got sucked in for two large bets.

respectfully,
temp

[akaLogic]

I have 2 problems with this hand.

First:
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is CO with A K Q 3
4 callers, I call, SB folds, BB checks

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but villian 3 is acting behind you on the turn and river.
If you were in the CO, the button must have called preflop.

Second, I would play this differently on every street.

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is CO with A K Q 3
4 callers, I call, SB folds, BB checks


[/ QUOTE ]

Clear raise, and your call was probably the biggest mistake of the hand. You want to be the button here. You will get a piece of most high flops. You will win a lot of pots by continuing to bet.

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop my raise was because I think that I have the best hand and I want to push out garbage draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you have the "best" hand. The truth is that an AKQJ with the QJ of spades will carve you up, and the truth is out there. Most hands where your top 2 hold up for high put a low on the board.

And you don't want to push out the garbage A9 that's drawing against you.

[ QUOTE ]
The turn turned my hand from a made hand to a drawing hand and I did have odds to draw until it was raised behind me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Better check those odds again. Figure you are only getting half the pot when you fill up X% of the time. With someone acting behind you, figure the percentage of the time you will be calling 3 more bets to see the river.

[ QUOTE ]
River: 8
check, check, check, villain3 bets, villain1 calls, villain2 calls, I fold

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I guess I was wrong earlier, I would probably check/fold here too, but I'm a weaky.

Altogether a very interesting hand. Thanks for the post.

[chaos]

I would not consider top two pair a made hand. You will most likely need to improve to win.

Someone may already have a set. Let's assume no one has a set and you have the best hand at the moment. What cards would you like to see on the turn and the river? The remaining Aces and Kings fill you up. What cards don't you want to see? You don't want to see a spade complete the flush draw. You don't want to see a Q, J, or T because they can complete someone’s straight draw. What's left? Two low cards that do not let someone make a straight. If the low cards come and your top two hold up for high you only win half the pot.

Since there was no preflop raise the pot is small. I would probably fold on the flop. I might take one off and call but I definitely would not raise.

Whether or not you raise on the flop, you are getting the proper odds to try and fill up on the turn. When it gets raised behind you, again you are getting the right odds to call.

Playing loosely on the flop sucks you in later in the hand. This increases your variance while adding only a little to your win rate. Look for reasons to fold on the flop.