K4 offsuit in BB - please help

bodie · #1 05-17-2005, 11:57 AM

Hi all,
I'm usually an Omaha player, just starting to play No Limit. Last night I played a $100 buy-in live game at a local casino. Please advise on what is proper play in the followng scenario:

I was BB with K4 offsuit.
UTG+1 is a solid player, has the largest stack in front of him, has won every hand he's involved in or folded before showdown, doesn't play that many hands. He raises it to $10.00.
Got 3 callers around the table. I thought about folding but decided to post the additonal $7.00. Was this wrong or ill-advised?
Of course the flop was: K, K, 6 (6 not suited to either K)

I led out with a ten dollar bet (right? wrong?)

UTG +1 raises to $50.00.

Everyone else folds around to me.
What would you do?

kongo_totte · #2 05-17-2005, 12:06 PM

Stack-sizes please.

This is a very easy fold pre-flop. Your hoping to flop 2-pair (which might be beat) or trips 4s. With that miracle flop of yours, I lead for 3/4 of pot and take it from there. That $10 tells you nothing and PFR might be raising to test you.

Since you got there the way you did, depending on how aggressive he is, I would either fold or call and lead the turn for 1/2 pot (depending on stack-sizes. If you just have a buy in, this line would commit you). If he has just shown down winners, I´m probably folding. This is depending on you image of course.

bodie · #3 05-17-2005, 12:22 PM

kongo,
Thanks for the reply. As soon as I posted it I realized I hadn't put stack sizes. I had just sat down and bought in for the allowed $100.00 - I had been there around 30 minutes. During that time I got involved in one hand which I won with a full house - I was holding J, 10ns and the board gave me a J and three 6's. I didn't play it terribly aggressively because I was worried about the case 6. So I had about $200.00 in chips. I had led out a few times and then ended up folding. Not playing a lot of hands. So my table image should have been "okay" but not really tested. I think this is my weakest aspect so far - NL is such a different game psychologically (or so it seems to me). My opponent had about $1000.00 in chips. I had seen him call others down and I'm sure if I went all in he would have called it, especially after he raised it $50.00. That was not a typical bet for him so far. He could have easily been manipulating me and testing - but on the other hand he could have easily had the other K with a better kicker. And I was out of position.
So you think once he raised it preflop I should have folded? It would have definitely been the safe thing to do, since as you said, what was I really hoping for....

trojanrabbit · #4 05-17-2005, 12:54 PM

Very easy fold PF. NL is very different from limit. Just to give you an idea, you should be folding KJo here and KQo too if you felt PFR was solid and not playing many hands. K4o is no where close. Just because the other people around the table call too much doesn't mean that you should too.

Leaky Game · #5 05-17-2005, 01:15 PM

The $10 flop bet into the $40 pot is a wasted bet. You either need to go 2/3s or so here or checkraise him. His $50 might just be a continuation bet here, it's what I'd do.

spoohunter · #6 05-17-2005, 01:27 PM

Not many players there have a king.

On the other hand, I would, if I made that raise.

Zag · #7 05-17-2005, 02:54 PM

Misplayed on every street. (sorry)

Easy fold preflop. Don't even consider it. Good, tight player with position on you has raised -- you want a premium hand. K4 isn't even a good hand. Fold KJs here. Fold KQ if not suited. Fold AT. The problem is that you are likely dominated -- you could easily catch a nice piece of the flop and still be behind. Since he has position, you are begging to be outplayed. This is not a guy who pays off, so all the implied odds are gone. Really, just fold.

(Hmmm. Maybe I overdid it. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] )

On the flop, OK, you got here by a misclick (let's see, live game, perhaps you were temporarily insane, whatever), and you have a very nice flop. Note, though, that you could still be behind and looking at 3 outs. If you bet out, there are three possibilities:

1. He is ahead. Plan to lose a lot of chips.
2. He has missed with his good ace (AQ?) or his underpair (TT?). We already know he doesn't pay off with losers. You win the preflop money.
3. He might believe you are just taking a shot at him and he can beat a bluff (AA, QQ?). He raises and you have a tough decision.

Since you bet out such a tiny bet, it does increase the chances that the case is #3, but I still doubt it. This sounds like a very loose game where more than half the hands see a showdown. He is a good player, so he is just going to wait for a better edge to put in his chips. (That is, a good player doesn't bluff or get fancy in a loose game -- he just waits until he has the best hand and bets away with it.) But, since you bet, you really don't know -- he might have pegged you as someone capable of taking a shot at the preflop raiser.

Instead, check-raise the flop. If he checks behind, then he has 2 outs at most (probably zero), so the free card isn't likely to hurt you. If he bets and you check-raise, if he reraises, you know you can lay it down. This is absolutely the cheapest you can get out of this hand if you are behind, and it is probably as much as you could hope to make if you are ahead.

bodie · #8 05-17-2005, 05:39 PM

"Misplayed on every street. (sorry)"

Zag,
Please don't be sorry! Thanks to you and everyone else who responded. I understand and agree with everything that you all said. It was all happening too "fast" in the live game and I'm stuck somewhere between the Omaha mindset (someone always has the nuts, or you at least know exactly where your hand stands) - and NL (where it seems no one might have anything - position and the players themselves have a lot more significance).
I learned alot from your posts, and I'll be reading on this forum now. I find it fascinating (is this how it starts?)

Thanks again!

kongo_totte · #9 05-17-2005, 05:57 PM

What did you do after his raise on the flop?

bodie · #10 05-17-2005, 06:33 PM

I thought about it for a bit, realizing what a bad position I was in, but hating to fold three K's - thought about the 4, and ultimately folded.
So I'll never know what he had, but I knew I had handled it badly from the beginning. My thoughts were:
a) I should have folded to the preflop raise in the first place
b) Once I was in and saw the flop, I should have checked it and seen what everyone else did.

Thanks again for your help.