high limit TD hand

[2005]

Hi guys, I was in Vegas for the WPT champ and there was a great 200/400 TD game going. I got a friend to take 1/2 of me in the game and sat in. SB in this hand is very tricky, reads well, but plays waayyyyyy too many hands(3-bets with bad 3 card draws, overplays his hands after the draw) and is one of the 2 soft spots in the game. folded to me on the button, I open with 267, he 3-bets, I 4-bet, he 5-bets, I call. he draws 1, I draw 2. He bets, I call after bricking. he raps pat, I draw 2 and catch a 3. He bets I call(raise here?). he raps pat again, I draw 1 and make #2. He checks, I bet, he raises. Is this an auto 3-bet or should I just call so as not to open myself up to the 4 bet?

[randomstumbl]

I'll preface this by saying that if your opponent is completely terrible and barely understands the rules of the game, then I'm probably giving bad advice.

267 is a nice hand to have on the button in an unopened pot, but why go 4 bets preflop. You're ahead of a two card draw to an 8 and all three card draws, but you're behind every 2 card draw to a 7 and way behind a one card draw. Even if the player is so terrible that it's more likely that he has a worse hand then you, you've got a small edge here and you'll likely have a much larger edge later.

2nd and third round are pretty automatic. The only way you can raise on the third round is if you think he stayed pat with a hand he'll break here to a raise (or if you think he's on a complete snow). Any sane opponent won't have a hand like that unless he caught the nine on the first draw (if they started with a 9 with a good draw, they'd have just thrown the 9 away to start with).

On the river, I'd normally three bet. You have the second best hand in the game. Earlier in the hand you say the guy three bets with three card draws from out of position. I'm pretty sure that answerss the question "would he raise with a hand worse than the stone cold nuts in this situation." Since I normally play online (where betting is always limited regardless of the pot being heads up), I don't know how many bets you should be willing to go on the river. I'd think pretty hard about calling after three betting, but I suppose it depends on the opponent more than anything else.

[fnord_too]

Don't raise when you improve to a one card draw on the turn. (You're thinking the raise will get him to break and it will be your 1 card draw against his 1 card draw? I don't like that line at all.)

On the river I three bet and call a raise.

Personally, I don't like four betting pre-flop here with a 2 card draw, less with a 2 card draw to not a wheel. Why put the money in now when you will have a much better idea of your advantage or lack there of after the first draw? Unless you plan on snowing it's not like he's not going to see you need two cards. So what if he three bets and draws three sometimes? He also 3 bets his 1 and two card draws (and pat hands) I am guessing, and if he goes too far anyway you have time to get his money.

Also, I would try to get on his left.

Also, you should make this your second home after MTT, we need more people for our TD discussions!

[2005]

I 4-bet b/c I had position and wanted to take control of the hand and b/c he had been 3-betting me with a ton of hands, so he could have just about anything when he 3-bet. I did move to his left and proceeded to win about 10k after doing so lol.

[2005]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, you should make this your second home after MTT, we need more people for our TD discussions!

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, I don't get many chances to play TD, but I'd be willing to contribute to discussions that take place for sure. This is my first time reading this board, so I didn't really know there was any TD discussion going on.

[randomstumbl]

I think the difference in opinion could easily be based on how poorly this guy was playing. Playing online, almost no one will ever raise drawing three out of position. So, obviously, you'll never be way ahead in that situation (and will be way behind a fair amount of the time). If this guy was seriously raising from the small blind and drawing three, your play looks a lot better. It'll still increase your variance like crazy, but still be +EV if you're not worried about the variance.

So, how did the hand end up anyway? The way you posed the question, it seemed like he had a wheel or something.

[timprov]

I think I would five-bet here and call 6. I like the rest of the hand.

[2005]

Nah, he had an 86 I think. It was a while ago, but I'm pretty sure I remember that...

[Luv2DriveTT]

Gavin:

Going as many bets as you did pre-flop with 267 is foolish, its just wasted spewing. Let your opponent do all the work for you, you are drawing very rough with a 6 - its therefore not wise at all.

With that said... if I had the roll I'd be in that game with you, he sounds like a total donor! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Good luck, and spend more time with us discussing TD! We need to build, there is just a handful of us so far!

[fnord_too]

I still not sure I like 3 betting to take control of the hand against a LAG here. If you think that will marry him to his hand post flop, or it's a meta game give action to get action thing, I'm fine with that. Also, if a 762 is better than his average three betting hand it's ok, too I guess. My problem with the take control line of reasoning is you cannot represent a bigger hand than you have since you take 2 cards on the first draw. Also, villain knows exactly what you are drawing to here. If say you did not four bet, on the river I think you can as one poster suggested put in the third and fifth bet. The way you got there putting in the third bet is ok, but you probably won't get a chance to put in the fifth if you are ahead and I wouldn't feel good about getting 4 bet. Had you just raised/called preflop, villain will likely put you on a draw to an 8, or 3 cards <= 7 without a 2 and a 7, so he is going to be more likely to press good hands like 86 on the river.