Raising with 88 and 99

[friends]

What do you think about raising 99 and 88 in the late position (WLLH advice)? I found it a bit dangerous, cause flop almost always hits T or bigger (according to WLLH that means fold), and only in 11% we can expect the set.

[@bsolute_luck]

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What do you think about raising 99 and 88 in the late position (WLLH advice)? I found it a bit dangerous, cause flop almost always hits T or bigger (according to WLLH that means fold), and only in 11% we can expect the set.

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first in: always.

1-2 limpers: i usually raise because my pair might hold with a thinner field and i can buy button, fold blinds.

3+ limpers: i just call.

...we'll see what others say. this is generally what i do.

[KeysrSoze]

No raise before you, I raise them all the time LP (well, maybe not 88 if its tight for a low limit game)

[matt42s]

Generally raise these from middle and late position.

The starting hand charts linked the bottom of the Microlimit FAQ will show you how different WLLH is from the "2+2 style"

It sounds like you've read only WLLH and haven't spent too much time trolling the 2+2 boards. This brilliant collection of previous 2+2 posts compiled by mmbtOne will get you going.

Microlimit Collection

Having read WLLH, you must read Ed Millers post "Specific examples of weak-tight, monsters under the bed from WLLH"

Oh and read Small Stakes Hold'em!

[ArturiusX]

I raise 99 always. I want the button with limpers, + for value.

[adsman]

This is one of the problems with WLLH. On the one hand he tells you to raise with 99, on the other hand he plays a "fit or fold" mentality game.

First of all I generally raise 99 from any position, including the blinds. There are two good situations with these hands. Against 5 or more opponents and you're looking to flop a set. Against 2 or 3 opponents who have probably limped in with fairly average holdings.

After that it's where your strong postflop play comes in, where you need to be able to identify when your hand is good when there are overcards and when it looks like you're beat. Thus there are two reasons for raising preflop. You want a big pot when you flop your set and you want to punish people who have limped in with rubbish and knock out the blinds.

Lets look at two examples. In both examples you're on the button with 88. 4 players limp to you. You raise, the SB folds, the BB calls as do all the limpers. Six to the flop for 12.5sb giving you great odds on flopping a set. Also if you hit your set you're going to get action as the pot is big and worth fighting over.

2nd example. Again you're on the button with 88. 2 players limp to you. You raise, both the blinds fold and the limpers call. 3 to the flop for 7.5sb. You have position and a good hand.
Notice what happens in both these situations if you just limp. In the first example the pot will be only 6.5 or 7sb. Not great odds on flopping your set and a pot that isn't worth fighting over anyway. In the 2nd example the blinds will probably call giving you 5 to the flop for 5sb, almost exactly the same situation as the first example.

By raising you create two different situations both of which are optimal for you. By limping you have the same situation both times which is completely undesirable in the face of the other examples.

[CEE]

I play these two hands differently:

99 raise from any position. In late position, it gives you an opp to isolate LPP limp-o-matic players. If the flop comes all low, your hand is in good shape and should be bet for value. If the flop comes with overcards, your opponenets make you for a premium hand and will often fold to your flop (or turn) bet. If you are bet into by a LAG player, you could raise and isolate his bluffing ways, or if it is a decent player betting out, you can fold with no more damage done. Final scenario is that you make your set and take down a big pot.

With 88, I might be a little more prone to limp from early position, or also if there have been a slew of limpers before you in late position (including some more "responsible" players). With only 0-2 limpers I will raise with it from MP on (incl blinds).

[Isura]

0-1 limper - You usually have the best hand so raise
2+ limpers - You still have equity against loose limpers, and awesome position, so raise. Raising also makes playing these types of hands easier postflop.

Yeah, I like to raise.

[Sarge85]

This question reminds me of the Ed Miller post "Taking the Training Wheels Off". - There isn't going to be a clear cut answer for you.

99 isn't so far off from TT that you wouldn't play it vary similar, other than the fact that you have another set of overcards that can beat you -

88 - A classic tweener - probably more value in sets, than top pair. If you can get HU (or three way) with it, then you can play for top pair - much more than that, look for sets.

Instead of thinking of hard lines like raise or fold this hand PF, think more generally - Look for reasons why to raise or fold - not the absolutes.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[btspider]

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This is one of the problems with WLLH. On the one hand he tells you to raise with 99, on the other hand he plays a "fit or fold" mentality game.

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yes and no. even if WLLH is saying fold to a flop bet, most of the time you get the opportunity to take a free card.. one of the other benefits to raising PF in LP. if someone bets into you on the flop with an overcard to your PP, its generally more profitable for a new player to fold.