online 3/6 hand (any two can win)

tdiddy · #1 12-02-2002, 04:13 AM

I usually play 1/2 and 2/4 but decided the 3/6 at pacific looked good. So I give it a try. The second hand of the session this happens:

8 handed 3/6 at pacificpoker.com

UTG: raise
all fold to Button minus 3 (B-3)
B-3: call
B-2(ME)[QsQh]: raise
B-1: call
B: call
SB and BB fold and remaining players call my raise.
FLOP: 6d 7h Jd
checked to me and I bet
button and UTG call, B-3 folds
Turn: 9h
checked to me and I bet
button and UTG call
River: 6c
UTG bets, I call, button folds
UTG shows me 4s 6s and rakes in $85 pot

The bastard raised UTG with 4s6s, how can we defend against this?

Michael Davis · #2 12-02-2002, 05:28 AM

Playing against opponents who correctly vary their play by occasionally raising 64s UTG is going to be a losing $$ task. This table was obviously tight, as he only got called by QQ outside of the blinds, so he had a good chance of taking down the blinds with his raise. (Here, the blinds only called the 3-bet because of the great pot odds they were getting, and likely held hands worse than 64s. This situation also works out for the UTG raiser, since he gets enough opponents to make his one-gapped suited connector profitable for any number of bets.) He could also get solid hands like AQ held by players applying Feeney's AQ test to fold. Another play he could have elected here was the rare limp-reraise, because you want to build a big pot here to generate implied odds. In fact, if he could push his entire stack in, he might want to, since if he flops trip 4s his opponent's money will already be in the pot and he will get all of his opponent's money.

I think you should reexamine your opponent's raise. He had a good chance of picking up the blinds, and eight players qualifies as a shorthanded game. If not routine, a player should raise with this hand here at least 50% of the time.

On the flop, you show no fear of a set or overpair from your UTG opponent. In my opinion, betting on the flop and turn is a kamikaze move. There are a lot of hands your opponent could be sandbagging.

As to losing with QQ, that's some real tough luck. Perhaps you should reread Hold 'Em For Advanced Players and consider folding when you only have one pair on the river. In the range of possible poker hands, one pair is not very strong, and you pretty much have to expect an opponent to turn up with two pair or better on a flop like this. I think you have to be getting about 25-1 to call here. If you had paid more attention to your opponent's tendencies throughout the session, you could have easily gotten away from this hand.

Also, you caused some of your problems with the preflop 3-bet. By raising it again, you gave your opponent the proper odds to call with any piece of the flop. You should consider just calling with QQ in this situation. Recognize that as the cutoff, you do not get first chance to bet, and this is a huge disadvantage. You can see this on the river when your opponent gets to act first and bets into you, and you are confused and decide to call. If you had been in better position, you might have avoided losing a bet here. Often, you will find your opponent is holding a better pair than QQ or a solid suited connector in the range of JTs-42s.

When opponents who are playing well are mixing up their play like this, you can't beat the game. I suspect the 3-6 game at Pacific is one of these games, so I recommend you find another place to play immediately. However, I plan on doing some firsthand research on Pacific just to make sure I am right. I will let everyone know once I lose my $200 investment that this game is one of the toughest around.

Take care, here's hoping big pocket pairs hold up in the future. You deserve it.

Mike

jek187 · #3 12-02-2002, 05:55 AM

The bastard raised UTG with 4s6s, how can we defend against this?

By taking the bad beats along w/the huge amount of money that can be made at that site.

Also, by not blabbing about how wonderful the games are at Pacific on this shark infested board. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Dr.Kimble · #4 12-02-2002, 06:40 AM

Thats a joke you have to raise 64s utg 50% of the time !!!
Whats about 75s [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

kdog · #5 12-02-2002, 01:41 PM

Hey tdiddy,ya shoulda come down to the 2-4 earlier than you did.You could have watched me 3 bet KK from utg+1 and go down to an mp player who cold-called with 7-2s when the board came 7-5-2-10-J rainbow.Ya gotta love that place.

pudley4 · #6 12-02-2002, 01:58 PM

Did you forget to turn the [/sarcasm] tag off before you posted? You have got to be kidding with this advice:

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
I think you should reexamine your opponent's raise. He had a good chance of picking up the blinds, and eight players qualifies as a shorthanded game. If not routine, a player should raise with this hand here at least 50% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

He got 1 caller, 1 raiser, then 2 more players who called 3 bets pre-flop [img]/forums/images/icons/blush.gif[/img] How does this qualify as "a good chance to pick up the blinds"?

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
On the flop, you show no fear of a set or overpair from your UTG opponent. In my opinion, betting on the flop and turn is a kamikaze move. There are a lot of hands your opponent could be sandbagging.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should he fear a set or overpair? He didn't get reraised preflop, so UTG probably doesn't have AA or KK. He didn't get check-raised on the flop or turn, so they probably don't have a set either. If his opp had JJ, 99, or 77, they played it horribly and saved our poster several bets.

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
As to losing with QQ, that's some real tough luck. Perhaps you should reread Hold 'Em For Advanced Players and consider folding when you only have one pair on the river. In the range of possible poker hands, one pair is not very strong, and you pretty much have to expect an opponent to turn up with two pair or better on a flop like this. I think you have to be getting about 25-1 to call here. If you had paid more attention to your opponent's tendencies throughout the session, you could have easily gotten away from this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only time he can even consider folding is on the river. When UTG bets when the 6 pairs, he probably has a 6 in his hand. However, there are 16 BB in the pot at this point, and the pair on the board means his hand now beats a 2 pair hand like J9. Are you 94% sure he has you beat? Not me - I make the crying call.

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />
Also, you caused some of your problems with the preflop 3-bet. By raising it again, you gave your opponent the proper odds to call with any piece of the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what if his opponent gets the correct odds to call? He's a 4-1 favorite preflop:

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Qh 1361570 79.52 343107 20.04 7627 0.45 0.797
6s 4s 343107 20.04 1361570 79.52 7627 0.45 0.203

And post-flop he's only slightly less than 4-1:

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Jd 6d 7h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Qh 776 78.38 214 21.62 0 0.00 0.784
6s 4s 214 21.62 776 78.38 0 0.00 0.216

I think the poster played it perfectly. This is a straightforward hand, and unfortunately he lost on the river. Sh!t happens.

HonestPete · #7 12-02-2002, 02:09 PM

8 handed HE game shorthande?

raise UTG 50% of the time? (and thats with trash hands)!

Fold on the river with 16.5BB in the pot when you still have good chances of winning the pot?

Don't reraise on the flop with good hands as it gives others an excuse to call on trash for pot odds?
[img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

Yap, top notch advice there.

P.S. very difficult to consider the players playing patterns when it was already stated that it was the 2nd hanf of the session. In my books, 1 hand doesn't constitue of enough of a history to know your players playing patterns. Perhaps you can enlighten me there Michael with your baffling advanced knowledge and intuition regarding this alleged sport.

tdiddy · #8 12-02-2002, 03:07 PM

LMAO. Excellent reply Michael.

I am an idiot. I can't keep a good thing to myself.

Michael Davis · #9 12-02-2002, 03:10 PM

Well, I like you a helluva lot more now! [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

I am a little disturbed that the original poster is the only one who clearly recognized the dripping sarcasm, though I do appreciate all of my "points" being systematically ripped apart in this thread.

I thought this hand was a bad beat story and had very little value for improving anyone's poker game. You played the hand perfectly, you just got sucked out. I would not worry about beating players who raise UTG with 64s, you can probably be playing your 'D' game and still turn a profit.

Take care.

Mike

Michael Davis · #10 12-02-2002, 04:35 PM

HonestPete,

8 handed HE game shorthande?

I consider an 8-handed game shorthanded, especially against tight players who respect UTG raises. Sometimes raising with 64s will get them to fold better hands like 84o. This is a huge advantage for you as you might take down the blinds or get heads up against a blind playing 32o or some such hand.

Fold on the river with 16.5BB in the pot when you still have good chances of winning the pot?

I don't know why you think our hero has a good chance of winning the pot on the river. A bet on the river means the UTG player has either a 6, KK, AA, or flopped a set. There is a 0% chance he has anything else. This flop provides no busted draws, and anybody holding AK would have folded long ago, probably when he got three bet preflop, fearing he is up against AA or KK. When a player check-calls like this throughout the hand, he is often slowplaying a monster. In my experience, players do not check-call with weak hands, they either bluff raise or fold. Thus, you should expect the player to be slowplaying a huge hand. In this case, it was the river that helped him, but as was made clear by the showdown, our hero should have folded on the river. He was beaten. Get out of the pot.

Don't reraise on the flop with good hands as it gives others an excuse to call on trash for pot odds?

Don't reraise on the flop with good hands as it gives others an excuse to call on trash for pot odds?

I don't see how a bunch of puzzled smiley faces is a good argument against my entirely accurate argument that this player should not have reraised before the flop because it gives his opponent the odds to call the entire way. With 64s, this opponent would have been getting odds to call a K-9-8 rainbow flop and try and outdraw QQ. This is terrible poker, and if you don't see this, you should reread HEPFAP, because you are not grasping what you read.

Next time you insult my advice, come with some facts, not some nonsensical jibberish that is not backed up by the standard poker texts.

P.S. very difficult to consider the players playing patterns when it was already stated that it was the 2nd hanf of the session. In my books, 1 hand doesn't constitue of enough of a history to know your players playing patterns.

One hand is plenty of observation. If you can't observe players and figure out their patterns in such a short time, you either shouldn't play in the game or should observe the game before entering. Do you expect to win just by playing solid cards? Also, please tell me what "your book" is so I can burn the silly source you are getting your information from. Thanks.

Mike