F*ckin Jacks

PinkSteel · #1 05-13-2005, 11:30 AM

I lost the hand.

I misplayed this badly, but the broader question is, how do you play JJ?

I'm to the point where I think that HU in position is the only place to play them hard. Otherwise it's limp and play for set value. Please tell me I should NEVER raise this hand preflop.

Typical 25NL table, pretty loose, pretty passive. Haven't been there long.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 Hero (10 handed) converter

MP1 ($24.75)
MP2 ($24.25)
MP3 ($42.05)
CO ($20.65)
Button ($59.8)
SB ($26.96)
Hero ($21.97)
UTG ($25.15)
UTG+1 ($40.45)
UTG+2 ($4.17)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.25, MP3 calls $0.25, 2 folds, SB (poster) completes, Hero raises to $1.75, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls $1.75, MP3 folds, SB folds.

I raised to isolate, but in retrospect, this was a terrible play. I should have limped and played for set value. If anyone calls, I'm out of position with a f*ckin pair of f*ckin Jacks.

Flop: ($4.75) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $2, MP2 calls $2.

Two overcards. Not bet time. Check/fold time.

Turn: ($8.75) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $2, Hero calls $2.

Yes, I'm showing you this because I played it like an idiot.

River: ($12.75) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $2, Hero calls $2.

Ref "idiot," above.

Final Pot: $16.75

Results in white below: 
Hero has Js Jd (one pair, jacks).
MP2 has Ad Kc (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MP2 wins $16.75.

kongo_totte · #2 05-13-2005, 11:43 AM

Unless there are som rare circumstances, always raise this pre-flop. Ep-raise is questionable EV-wise for the single hand, but in the long run you'll be to easy to read if you only raise AA-QQ.

On the flop, either bet atleast 3/4 or check it. I usually bet and slow down if called, but I check sometimes to mix it up. Especially against opponents who will call down w/ MPNK.

Since I wouldn't be in your situation on the turn and river, I'm not sure. I guess it's not horrible to call his weak bets.

Ghazban · #3 05-13-2005, 11:43 AM

That's some nice results-oriented thinking you've got going there....

Seriously, though. The raise preflop is good but playing for set value is not terrible either. With that many opponents in, you can potentially win a big pot if you flop a set as its almost a guarantee somebody else will have some part of the board.

NYCNative · #4 05-13-2005, 11:49 AM

Here's how you don't play Jacks - if you're in a raised pot and two of the three overcards to your Jacks flop, keep putting money in the pot.

The PF raise was fine - you should define the hand and you don't want your Jacks to lose to the weak Ace that completed from SB. You do want to isolate them and you did.

But when the flop came up like that, don't keep feeding the pot.

Always Rockets · #5 05-13-2005, 11:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Here's how you don't play Jacks - if you're in a raised pot and two of the three overcards to your Jacks flop, keep putting money in the pot.

The PF raise was fine - you should define the hand and you don't want your Jacks to lose to the weak Ace that completed from SB. You do want to isolate them and you did.

But when the flop came up like that, don't keep feeding the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

couldn't have said it better myself... the PF play was fine, but after that... (THROWING UP FACE)

kongo_totte · #6 05-13-2005, 12:00 PM

I disagree that taking a stab on the flop is horrible. Althouhg, if you do, it should be a proper stab. Villian could have tons of hands; any PP, a SC or (this is Party) any two. I don'´t say you should always bet this flop, but I'm betting it more often than not and I think it's long term +EV.

PinkSteel · #7 05-13-2005, 12:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That's some nice results-oriented thinking you've got going there....

[/ QUOTE ]

You wouldn't say that if I separated my "I suck" posts from my "I have a legitimate question" posts. This one is both. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks for the reply. Kongo makes a good point about raising this pf for shania/readability purposes, so betwen you and him I definitely buy it. But I think with it being multiway I should have limped and looked for another J.

So, to separate results from correct action --
* Preflop debatable
* Turn and river, clearly abominable, never should have been there
* Flop: would you lead, or check it?

subzero · #8 05-13-2005, 12:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But when the flop came up like that, don't keep feeding the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
MP2 limped in. Why do we have to credit him with an Ace or Queen at this point? Besides, hero is the preflop raiser. I'd make a continuation bet on the flop. If he calls, then I think it's time to shut down.

TakeMeToTheRiver · #9 05-13-2005, 12:10 PM

Pre-flop raise is fine. Post-flop bet should have been bigger. Shut down after that -- although the small bets are terrible (by Villain), what hand could he/she/it be betting that you beat? I would put villain on an ace or a non-nut flush. You don't beat either. If you think Villain could fold a made hand on a scary board, you raise... but at this level, there is no way they fold AK.

Were you hoping for another spade on the end?

Ghazban · #10 05-13-2005, 12:10 PM

Getting headsup with a guy who limp/called, I'm leading almost every flop. Small-medium pocket pairs are the most common things people will limp/call with so, even if the board is hideously ugly (like this one), it could scare him as much as it scares you. If you check, you're basically giving up on the hand as I can't see check/calling a flop like this ever being +EV at this level (in bigger games where there's more 3rd level and higher thinking, maybe it could be against the right player). Once you get called, you're pretty much done with the hand. Even though villain's turn and river bets are puny, you don't have odds to draw at 2 outs (maybe even just 1 out-- don't recall if you had the flush J in your hand or not).