betting when "you'll only get called by a better hand"

[sxz18]

I completely understand this statement when players discuss hands. It's especially useful when you have the nut flush, but it's possible that Villian has a full house. You need to proceed with caution if you get raised because if you reraise, you will certainly only get called by a better hand.

Well, what if I want to make a better hand fold? Surely this is possible by betting sometimes. An example would be betting with a four to flush on board. If I have position on my opponent, betting when checked to me would be a +EV wouldn't it? I believe your opponent will only call with a hand that has you beat. However, on the flip side, your opponent will also fold hands that you cannot beat.

I only ask this because today, during a 2/4 NL game, I had J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in MP. Villian was SB. Flop was J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Villian bet 4, I raised to 12, the rest of the field folded, and Villian called. Turn was 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Villian checks, I bet 20, Villian calls. At this point, I don't believe Villian has a flush because he would've either check-raised or bet right out on the turn. River was 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Villian checks, I check.

Villian turns over 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and I study the board and say "Nice hand" and muck my hand. I checked the river because Villian will only call with a hand that beats my right? But in this case, I believe betting would've gotten my opponent to fold the winning hand. So where do you draw the line of when to value bet the river, when to bet the river hoping to get a better hand to fold, and when to check the river because you will only get called by a better hand? I understand this is something that probably comes with tons of experience, but I think it's frustrating when you lose to a hand because you chose to check the river because the board was highly coordinated.

[DaveduFresne]

Read SuperSystem for a good statement on this idea. Doyle talked about this one guy who was a super card reader, and would try to bluff people out of hands. Like lets say there was a King on the board, and he knew his opponent had pocket Jacks, but his own hand could not beat Jacks. Doyle said it was foolish to try to bluff of a man you knew you could not beat in a showdown. (Now I know he advocates bluffing on draws, but he was referring to stone cold bluffs here, without outs.)

And in general, I think its a good policy to follow. There are exceptions, like when you know villain very well, and he's a fairly solid player who will make good laydowns. But you also have to work the hand back in your head. A lot of solid players are able to make good calls when the playing out of the hand just makes no sense that you could have what you're representing.

I've made a lot of money against callers who try a random bluff on the river, especially against decent players who I have a good read on. Sometimes I'm almost sure that there is no way they have the hand they're representing, and I will make some pretty big calls in this case. Against a loose fishy or crazy opponent, I will be less likely to make these calls, as I probably have no idea of what they have. So they may get away with one, but these guys usually give there money away in other ways, so making "super calls" against them is unescessary.

Now, with the hand you mentioned, I would not bluff the river. He could easily have had AJ with the Ace of Hearts. His call on the turn indicated to me one of two things: either he had a made flush or he had the Ace or possibly King of hearts and was hoping the river would give him some help.

As it was he was actually on a full house draw, but you couldn't have known that, and it wouldn't have been what I would have suspected.

Would a bluff have worked there? Probably, but unless you had a strong read on his hand I think its a -EV play in the long run.

Hope this helps,

David

[Rotating Rabbit]

Ensure this dude is on your buddy list

[RobbyD]

You are confusing two things. First off, sometimes when you bet on a tricky board you will only be CALLED by a better hand. You may also bet to make a better hand fold too. In this case if you bet of course you will only be called by a better hand ... BUT you also can get a better hand to fold in this case by betting.

[brokedickrooster]

The only think confusing is YOUR post. The OP knows exactly what he is talking about and posted a very specific question regarding this situation. and received a very thorough response from Mr. Defresne.

[flawless_victory]

its called BLUFFING, and in holdem its LEGAL... YAAAAY! your hand is irrelevant in this case, bc if you get called, you lose... jeez.

[topout]

Looking at what he called down with, do you really think you had much fold equity against this sort of player after he caught his baby flush?
"Only a better hand will call" check is for when you think you likely have the best hand and therefore want to see a showdown.
Here, you are fairly certain your TP mid kicker with a 4-flush on the board was no good.

topout

[freemoney]

its a bad post so shh. initial poster is talking about after the river when to bet a) b/c you want a call b) b/c you want better hand to fold or when to check c) hand is strong but will only be called by a better hand. this little thing about brunson and bluffing with no outs has nothing to do with that, thats during the hand, so dont endorse posts when you dont understand concepts. IMO here is a spot you can definitely bet b/c villian is really handcuffed here, he cant c/r w/o the ace of hearts unless hes real tricky or real bad and its an easy fold if he does raise. i like a bet here also for metagame purposes, but a check behind isnt awful as your hand does have some showdown value.

[soah]

I played a hand today where I openraised from the button to $30 and a LAG called me from the SB with T8s. The flop came AQx with two of his suit. He checked and called my $45 bet. The turn was an eight and went check-check. The river was a brick and the LAG checked, I bet $100. IMO, the LAG should have either called or folded at this point. Instead, he raised to $275. This line was inconsistent with how the LAG would play a strong hand, and I had seen him make several bad bluffs already in my brief time at the table, so I looked him up with AJo.

His raise on the river was very dumb, because I will call him with almost everything that beats him, and fold almost everything he beats. About the only hands that I would have folded on the river that beat him are hands like KK and Qx... HOWEVER, I would have checked behind on the river with these hands... so once he is faced with a river bet, those are no longer part of my range of hands. (Although I'm writing this post to discuss my opponent's play, my own river decisions here are also very relevent to the point of this discussion. I'm going to either bet the river for value, in which case I need to be fairly certain my hand is good, or I will be betting because I believe my chances of winning a showdown are very slim but I think I can steal the pot. If I can beat busted draws but few legitimate made hands, then I'll take the free showdown.) Once I've made the decision to bet, my opponent is now in the situation where he can beat a bluff but not much else. As far as I can see, raising here is his worst option. Due to his image, he won't get me to make big laydowns often enough for this to be profitable.

I hope this helps.

[pzhon]

On the river, when you are last to act, you can bet for two basic reasons.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] To get called by a worse hand. This is a value bet. It's best to do this with good hands.
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] To make a better hand fold. This is a bluff. It's best to do this when your hand has no showdown value.

You shouldn't bet just because you have a strong hand. You should figure out whether you are bluffing or value betting.

In NL, with the same hand, you might value bet or bluff. If you bet a small amount with a mediocre hand, you may be value betting. If you overbet, you may be bluffing, wasting your showdown value.

There are other possibilities which are not as fundamental.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] To induce a bluff check-raise. Try betting an irritatingly low amount when you are sure your aggressive opponent has trash.
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] You can make a marginal bluff or a marginal value bet when your real purpose is to hide your hand or to induce tilt for metagame reasons.