Flop decision

[Ikke]

10/20 5 max at Paradise. All players are unknown.

You have Kd7d on the button and open-raise. SB coldcalls, BB folds.

Flop comes A84 with the 4 being a diamond. The SB bets out.

Your action? And if you continue, what is your plan for the hand?

Thanks

Regards

raise the flop and bet the turn. check the river regardless. if he doesnt have an A he folds by the turn.

[Glenn]

Fold unless this is becoming a pattern and you feel it is time to play back at this guy. You have no pair, no draw. Your king outs are probably good, your 7 outs are iffy. The pot is not that big. You may occasionally have the best hand but it is fairly unplayable if you do. So fold. If you fold here somtimes, it will give your bluff/semibluff raises more credibility later anyway. Of course you could know something about the bettor that could shift this the other way, but against a normal opponent I think it is fairly clear.

[CreamPuff]

Since all players are unknown, just fold and wait
until you get to know them.

This guy could have anything from nothing to
a set.

If you are going to play on, I would raise the flop,
because he may fold right away.

Then CHECK the turn. If he calls your raise, he
will more than likely call a turn bet, because
he has something.

Betting the turn is wrong, unless you hit a pair.
Unless he has an Ace, which you are now fairly confident
he doesn't, there are many river cards that will force him
to check the river.

I would continue if it were A74d, and I had Kd8d.

If he were the type of player that leads with big hands,
and occasionally bluffs in these spots, I would just
call the flop, because he will now give up on the turn
if he's bluffing (hopefully) and don't have to worry about
getting reraised/pot-stuck.

[Ikke]

" I would continue if it were A74d, and I had Kd8d."

I think this is the key factor. A lot of the times betting out here means a pair, but often not top pair (especially with the A IMO).

So I agree with folding and trying to get to know his tendancies first, but let's assume your example, where you have Kd8d on a A74 flop against an unknown opponent.

You said you would continue. How? With a raise? Call and fold the turn if you dont improve? What if you improve?

Personally I dont like raising on the flop in that spot. I frequently wait with hands like top pair on the turn, for extra value, and to discaurage players to keep betting into me. So I would call in your situation and see what the turn brings.

I'm interested in your opinion when you DO and DONT hit your pair on the turn assuming you have called the flop (ofcourse if you would raise the flop, I'd like to know that as well). What with a K, what with a 8? Under what conditions (player tendancies etc) do you think a different than default strategy becomes preferable?

Sorry, lots of questions, but I find this an interesting situation. Players who go "against the flow" are not very frequent, but it's still important to handle them correctly.

Thanks for the responses.

Regards

[Ikke]

Two questions:

Do you often raise the flop if you hold an ace here? In which situations would you just call the flop?

Thanks for the response.

Regards

[Ikke]

What's your experience with these kind of player who go against the flow? Is it really the range from bluf to monster or can you put them on a more narrow range of hands?

Thanks

Regards

[CreamPuff]

Players who go "against the flow" are not very frequent
Interesting you feel this way. I posted on the topic
at least twice within the last year+, and in both cases
I felt the answers were not very helpful. (I used "Leading into the raiser" as my topics, i believe.)

So I've been on the lookout for this type of behavior
for quite some time, and here are my thoughts:

Lower limit ring players do it more often then
higher limit ring players.

More often shorthanded players have a
pair or better than a draw.

When an ace flops especially. I frequently just
call a player down when I have AK and there were only 2
bets preflop and 3 or more
players see the flop. This is because they must
KNOW one of us has an Ace, and are trying to either
induce action, or possibly take a quick shot on the
flop and bluff.
Another play, i'll make (AK)is say the flop is A58 with
2 suit. They'll bet into me on the flop?!?!? Then
they will check the turn. If I know they don't
semibluff, I'll bet and fold to a raise. If they are
aggressive, I will sometimes give a free card.


************************************************** ********
I think these players are more common than you do.
One thing I must say, is that players that strictly
bet into the raiser with draws only, are poor players,
easy to read, and don't last long. That's why the
majority of times the player actually has a pair.
However, I do run into the former every now and then.


Also I'll use the play myself..Here is a good example.
BB with 88, UTG limps, button raises, sb calls, I call,
UTG reraises. All call. Flop K83. I'll just bet into raiser.

Ill even do it HU, if I they are aggressive, and I have
a good hand/good kicker. example AJ in BB vs button raiser.
Flop A68, 2 suit. I like to represent a draw, get raised,
and play it hard. I'll even give a free card on the turn
sometimes after 3 betting flop if I think they have no draw, or maybe will bluff.

You said you would continue. How? With a raise? Call and fold the turn if you dont improve? What if you improve?
I was also going to say I like a call better, despite my previous analysis.
A call already represents an Ace. No sense in throwing away money, unless they are known to fold for a single
raise (unlikely).
And yes, fold turn. it's too big a bet to play a guessing game.
If I do hit the turn, I will test any and all players
with a raise. if they reraise with just a marginal hand,
they will by mentally noted as a player not to f*ck with,
and I will just call them down in the future.

In the future, you may want to fold on the flop in more 3
handed pots. HU will always be a guessing game.
I know players who fold nearyl 100% of the time w/ nothing (not AK,etc) in these short spots (2 bets preflop vs. typical opp.), and do pretty good.

[CreamPuff]

How about this : $5/10 5 handed game. avg opp.
10% total bluff
25% draw
40% pair
25% top pair

[Jason Pohl]

Well, I'm really tired so probably should just wait to reply...but here goes. CreamPuff is right...this is a bet from somebody who likely has a pair or better (in my experience). It's probable that your opponent only has middle pair and is testing, but that's not really good for you. IMO, the proper play is FOLD. 1) It's gonna be expensive to push the bettor off his hand, and too often, it'll be impossible. 2) You won't improve enough, and when you do, it will often make you the 2nd best hand. 3) The pot is still relatively cheap.

I like to think of it this way: My opponent expects me to call or raise. So, why would I oblige them unless it has a clear benefit for me?

Having said that, it is definitely based on the type of opponent. If it's a tricky, aggressive type, I'd be more inclined to consider playing on. And if I'd been folding a lot on the flop, I might make a stand. But in most cases, I'd just fold and wait for a more favorable situation.

Good luck,
--Jason