weak or prudent?

The Goober · #1 05-05-2005, 04:44 AM

I walked away from this session feeling rather schooled, and I'm trying to figure out what I should have learned from this hand.

MP3 was bad player who liked to raise or cold-call PF, and was a calling station post-fold. BB was a good TAG player. He already thinks of me as a tight player and I've been folding a lot so that image should be solid.

Live 8-16 (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 3 fold, MP3 calls, 2 fold, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, MP3 calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12.5 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, BB raises, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero folds...

PokerSparky · #2 05-05-2005, 05:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He already thinks of me as a tight player and I've been folding a lot so that image should be solid.

[/ QUOTE ]

This should be more of a reason to call down against a TAG IMO.

rmarotti · #3 05-05-2005, 05:08 AM

This fold sucks diseased donkey dong.

aK13 · #4 05-05-2005, 05:37 AM

You don't think he'd play AK (or an unlikely) AQs this way too?

Fold is horrible.

admiralfluff · #5 05-05-2005, 05:45 AM

you've been foldong a lot, so therefore he is probably only betting with hands that beat you, because he knows you won't fold.

nh

Pokey · #6 05-05-2005, 12:54 PM

There are only three hands that scare the bejeezus out of you here: AA, KK, and JJ. Any other hand and you're WAY ahead.

Put yourself into the TAG's shoes. You're dealt a strong hand but you see a very tight player who loves the hand preflop. Does he still like it on the flop? He bets it when you check to him, but that doesn't tell you much. So, you check-raise to test him...and he only calls. Jackpot! Now you think UTG missed his hand -- maybe he's only got overcards, for instance. So, when the turn comes, you bet the blank.

I'm not saying BB doesn't have AA, KK, or JJ. What I am saying is that we can't be sure of that from the betting, and a wide range of other hands, including paint like AJ, AQ, and AK, or pocket pairs like 99 and TT, might play the exact same way. I see this as "way ahead or way behind" time, and I call this turn. If the river blanks, I call it as well. If an A or K hits the board on the river and BB still bets out, I just call it.

Also, if a blank hits the board on the river and BB just checks to me, I think I check behind. Either he's completely missed and given up on his bluff, at which point you won't squeeze one more bet out of him, or he's got something nasty and is feigning weakness to get a check-raise. Take the free showdown as a gift, since betting can only hurt you.

The Goober · #7 05-05-2005, 02:20 PM

Thanks for the replies. Its nice to see a unanimous response - I figured I screwed the pooch on this one and now I know for sure that I did.

For the record, admiral, I meant I had been folding a lot pre-flop, not that I had been playing weak-tight postflop (although I can see why you think I might have been [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

My thinking at the time went like this: BB 3-bet out of position after a tight player raised UTG - I can't see him doing this with a hand weaker than AQs or so. After I cap PF and bet out on the flop, he checkraises the field. I had a hard time believing that he would do this with just overcards, mostly because of MP3 in there who he knew would likely call down if he caught a decent piece of anything. I also had a hard time seeing him do this with TT - this only leaves hands that beat me (AA, KK, JJ) and the unlikely chop with QQ.

I suppose my thinking should have more like Pokey's: BB gets a hand like AK or AQ and 3-bets for value, figuring he might be best and if not he can take control of the hand and maybe push me off a big A if I miss. MP3 is weak enough that his presence doesn't really bother him. On the flop, there's still a good chance that I missed with something like AK or KQs. My auto-bet means nothing, as does the call from MP3, so he check-raises to test me. Obviously when I just call he's going to follow through on the turn.

So I guess the question is whether I should have 3-bet the flop and lead the turn, or just call down. I'm not necessarily WAWB here, since the most likely hand of his that I'm beating is AK and he'd be drawing live. It'd be great to get him to fold AK (thinking I have AA or KK), but if I 3-bet and lead the turn, can I safely fold to a turn CR?

FWIW, in the actual hand, MP3 called the turn and folded to BB's river bet. As he was collecting the pot, BB flipped one card and showed a J. I actually think this makes it more likely that he flopped a set of Js, since his play is consistent with JJ, but I suppose he could of have 3-bet my UTG raise with AJ. Maybe he just figured he could massively outplay me postflop? If so, he was probably right [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]