Very Aggggressive...

Chris Dow · #1 05-02-2005, 08:56 AM

Here we go, no real read I think this is the second (but maybe third) time he's just lead the flop into me. Can't have that so I decided to try to put a stop to it. Comments? FWIW, my line is, fold immediately to 3 bet, but continue the bluff on the turn if he checks to me regardless of what falls.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
6 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises

Schwartzy61 · #2 05-02-2005, 09:02 AM

I believe this is misplaced aggression. What do you do if he calls and then check/calls it down? You really have like 1.5 outs to win this hand (backdoor flush), your only chance is to get him to fold. You would really have to know how he has reacted to stiff opposition in the previous hands, And since you don't give the liklihood of him folding I assume it won't happen often enough for this play to work out.

Fnord · #3 05-02-2005, 09:07 AM

You got your hand stuck in the cookie jar this time though.

I've made the same play and usually end up just feeding the guy more chips. Being more detatched, I would give this one up and hope he tries this [censored] against me next time. Or maybe make a loose flop call just to see what he does on the turn. Make a note and shift down gears a bit. With any luck, next hand he'll call the flop raise and gaybet the turn too.

Chris Dow · #4 05-02-2005, 09:24 AM

Sorry, you guys misunderstood. I post hands ambiguously because results don't matter. You're assuming I posted this because it failed, in this particular instance that isn't true. He called the flop and check/folded the turn. Please don't talk about outs btw. While I certainly realized that I had backdoor diamonds, the play is made entirely to generate fold equity. I think the important thing is that people leading the flop into the preflop raiser are typically very weak. I let him get away with it one time and this time I decided I wanted to stop that. By choosing to not fold on the flop I'm going to invest 2BBs to try and win approximately 3BBs. What do you guys think about the strict odds? I will make this play fairly frequently at 2/4 when the board looks good for it. JJT when led into is a good board right?

chief444 · #5 05-02-2005, 09:25 AM

I'd much rather have a pair, A or K that I can showdown. I think that adds a lot of value to this play. I'm not sure as it is you'll take it down with a flop raise and turn bet 2 in 5-6 times.

Fnord · #6 05-02-2005, 09:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure as it is you'll take it down with a flop raise and turn bet 2 in 5-6 times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I don't like pure bluffing the donks, they call too much. It's what they do.

If you really want fishy to fold, why not represent a big hand by calling the flop then popping the turn?

Chris Dow · #7 05-02-2005, 09:32 AM

I'm curious about your A,K comment chief. I honestly don't think having it to showdown would be much help. On the contrary, having the overs to draw to would benefit so if that's more what you meant, than I would concede that would be a nice bonus.

Do you want the ace because you can check behind if he's doing this with a straight draw and doesn't give up on the turn?

DMBFan23 · #8 05-02-2005, 09:34 AM

he's bluffing too much, so I want him to stop bluffing...

I think thats backwards

Fnord · #9 05-02-2005, 09:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
he's bluffing too much, so I want him to stop bluffing...

I think thats backwards

[/ QUOTE ]

Chris is probably used to raising hands like this and picking up pots on unloved flops and is a little steamed this guy is making it difficult, so he's swimming against the current.

Chris Dow · #10 05-02-2005, 09:43 AM

Yeah, for me it's not backwards. At this level I much prefer to be the person raising preflop and betting the flop. When someone tries to break up that cycle I will react aggressively if a good spot presents itself. As far as not showing the extra strength by going for the turn my logic is that if he is betting a jack here (which is like, the only way I lose in my mind) then he is betting it with the intent of 3 betting the flop if I raise. So I'd just as soon give him the chance now. So while their basic mistake at this level is to call too much, I try to compound their mistake by making them not reach showdown enough. They have to be trained to do that and this sort of play is one way I try to do that. It's important here that this guy is defending his blinds vs one of my button raises, I'm of the opinion that I can't let those guys get frisky with me and just lead flops and make my life uncomfortable.