sneaky trips first hand of a mini step 4

[Che]

First hand of a Mini Step 4. Everyone has 1000 chips.

$165 buyin. 1-2 advance to Step 5 ($430 buyin), 3-5 return to step 4, 6-7 drop back to step 3 ($55 buyin), 8-10 get stuff but it sucks.

Folded to me in MP and I make it 50 with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] cuz I just do that sometimes. Called by button, SB and BB – all unknowns.

Flop: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (Pot=200)

SB bets 50, BB calls, I raise to 325, button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (Pot=1225)

SB checks, I check, button pushes (625).

1. Should I call if SB folds?
2. Should I call if SB calls?

Any comments on flop and turn play appreciated…

Che

[michw]

If SB mucks I think it's an easy fold. The turn filled in any possible draw the button may have been on. You're getting 3:1 on your money and you're about 3.5:1 to make a boat or quads. If the SB calls your most definitely beat but are now getting 4:1 on your draw. But...the Sb may have 9-9, 10-10, (seems unlikely), or A6 where you're in a world of hurt and are not getting 4:1. Also with 600 chips left you've still got some fight left. I think I muck regardless of SB's action.

[Che]

[ QUOTE ]
Folded to me in MP and I make it 50 with 8 6 cuz I just do that sometimes. Called by button, SB and BB – all unknowns.

Flop: 6 6 9 (Pot=200)

SB bets 50, BB calls, I raise to 325, button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: T (Pot=1225)

SB checks, I check, button pushes (625).

[/ QUOTE ]

SB called, I folded.

Button showed JJ (with [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) and SB showed AA (with [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]). River was a blank. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

FWIW I would have called the button HU, but I thought the fact that SB appeared to have been playing a flush draw combined with the fact that someone could have a boat (TT, 99) or a bigger 6 led to my fold decision.

I guess it's a pretty boring hand (or people just stopped reading when they saw that I raised with 86s [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]).

Later,
Che

[gumpzilla]

I agree with the previous poster; I'm more inclined to fold if SB folds and take my odds to fill up or hit quads if he calls. Because both flushes and a straight got there I'm not sure how afraid you have to be of a better three of a kind, and a better 6 would be silly. I think you're getting the right price to call at that point.

[Che]

If all 10 of my boat outs are clean, the call is slightly +EV if SB calls. However, I could have seven outs (the T outs being gone) or worse - be drawing dead to the case 6.

Meanwhile, I do not think the button needs to be beating me to push, but the SB *should* be beating trip 6's to make this call don't you think? There's an obvious flush on board and a board pair so AA with heart should be at the bottom end of his calling range. The vast majority of the time he will have a better hand than this.

My odds to draw are insufficient HU with the button if he is beating me, but he will often *not* be beating me, so I'm comfortable calling him, but I'm not excited about calling the SB because he will almost always be beating me, sometimes crushing me.

Am I way out in left field on this one?

Later,
Che

[Apathy]

The thing about 'sneaky' trips is that you have to pay off with them more then usual because noone is worried about you having them when they push into you. That being said this is a relly tough spot, I might have called the original push but theres little chance I would call after the push and the call.

[Che]

[ QUOTE ]
The thing about 'sneaky' trips is that you have to pay off with them more then usual

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I definitely pay off (and back into winning in this case) if this was a multitable or even if it was a regular SNG (probably), but the flat nature of the payout in the step 4 tilted me toward folding and playing on.

Even with this structure, I would have been all-in on any non-flush card, but SB's play screamed flush draw IMHO so I folded. Oh well...

Later,
Che

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

Meanwhile, I do not think the button needs to be beating me to push, but the SB *should* be beating trip 6's to make this call don't you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

I definitely agree that SB calling suggests to me that I'm behind. But, I tend to think I'm probably behind after the push already.

Your point about all of your outs not necessarily being live is a good one. Initially I was thinking that 99 probably would have moved you in on the flop, but I was forgetting that they already had a boat, and the flush getting there would be a perfect reason to push at that point from 99's perspective with two other people in the pot, since at least one of those is likely to be on the draw.

[ QUOTE ]

Am I way out in left field on this one?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, not at all; I'm just thinking that after the flop action, I'm probably behind to even the pusher, so I'm not calling here unless I think I've got a good price to try and hit a boat.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Meanwhile, I do not think the button needs to be beating me to push, but the SB *should* be beating trip 6's to make this call don't you think? There's an obvious flush on board and a board pair so AA with heart should be at the bottom end of his calling range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Say you're SB (and misclicked about three times on prior streets). You call PF hoping to trap, bet out on that relatively harmless flop and get raised by what looks an awful lot like jacks. The button coldcalls, which could mean A6 or, more likely, a flush draw/TT/etc. If I'm SB, I don't think the button beats me right now.

Now you hit the turn, which, even if bad, gives you 13 outs counting the other aces/sixes. The raiser checks his (something that doesn't beat a flush) and the button pushes. Does the button push a flush or trips? Maybe, maybe not, but you have 11/13 outs if he does so you call. Having screwed up the hand thus far the call makes sense.

Having said that, from your perspective this looks bad enough so that I'd fold and then sigh on the river.

[rollingdirty]