50-100 hand

[Billy LTL]

A passive live one to my immediate right open-limps from middle position. I raise with 77. Three more call, including the BB. The live one calls. Five in for 10.5 sb.

The flop comes J92 rainbow. The BB (a poor, pseudo aggressive player) bets, the live one calls, I raise, all fold to L1 who calls. Two in for 17.5 sb.

The turn: J92(K) still rainbow. Live one checks. I check. Comments?

The river: J92K(A). L1 checks, I check. He shows what I feared - a lesser pocket pair than mine, 55 if I remember correctly.

How bad were my turn and river checks? I really don't know. Remember, I went into the hand knowing he could be holding almost any old trash in his hand. Appreciate your help. Best of luck - Billy (LTL)

[Jimbo]

Hi Billy,

Good to see you posting again. Am glad to see (misery loves company huh?) I am not alone in the situation you described. This quandry often stumps me as well. You have a passive unpredictable player to your right who you try to isolate. Voila' you are successful and what happens? An overcard comes, he is passive so a check seems in order with plans to bet if checked to on the river. Now what happens? Another overcard! Not just another overcard but the whopping mother of all overcards an Ace! This loose passive guy could easliy play a weak suited ace but will obviously call my river bet if he improved. So I check like you did and naturally have a small pot with a winning hand.

I hope you get some solid advice from others here since it may help me under these circumstances as well.

Jimbo

[andyfox]

I think when a passive player checks when a smaller overcard comes and then again when a bigger overcard comes, he's more likely to be weaker than when he checks when a bigger overcard comes and then again when a smaller overcard comes. I tend to bet the river in the former situation more often than in the latter.

[D.J.]

I think you've got to bet the turn b/c most players will likely give you credit for a K instead of a J or 9 after raising pre-flop. I think you could have represented the K here and either taken it down or at least built a little bigger pot for yourself. Also, people no matter what limit you're playing are much more likely to call a flop bet rather than turn and river b/c of bet size of course, and you could have easily gotten hammered on the river if he held any overcards to your 7's. However, if he calls your turn bet, I would check the river also b/c loose players are more inclined to play every ace.

-D.J.

[astroglide]

interesting observation. i'll see if my opponents run that pattern as well.

[Jimbo]

Andy,

I agree with your analysis in all cases except when the bigger overcard coming on the river happens to be an Ace. I find this particular instance tends to offer less return than the other situation.

Jimbo

[mike l.]

why are you raising the flop w/ way the worst of it if youre beat, someone betting into you, someone calling, and all those cold callers behind you? the flop play here is horrid and if you play this scenario out 1000 times you will be losing all sorts of money.

why be concerned with your checks on the turn and river? your opponent is drawing to two outs so you arent worried about giving a free card and it's clear he'll call you down with any hand that beats you, but he may check to you with some hands that beat you, so youre just throwing money away by value betting the expensive streets here.

looks to me like you basically misplayed every street. the preflop raise may be correct however if the cold callers in this hand were just a fluke.

[J_V]

Of course, the paly of this hand on all streets is remarkably bad. Who cares about the turn and river, you choked preflop and on the flop. You put yourself in a horrible situation preflop with no good scenarios.

[hillbilly]

how can you of all people not like this flop raise by billy?

this flop raise got him Heads-UP! with mister weak passive, likely driving out holders of overcards which did come and likely would have beat him. in fact combined with his preflop strength it is possible this raise folded a nine or even a jack possibly, depending on his table image.

speaking of table image, when his opponents see billy drag a nice pot with fifth pair, wow!... what a coup!

now granted, this hand falls more under the "vary your play" catagory and you can't willy nilly play every middle pocket pair in this same fashion, or you are right, billy will go broke.

[mike l.]

"how can you of all people not like this flop raise by billy?"

he got very lucky that it worked. the odds were way against him. im sure he probably got a 9 to fold, or AQ or KQ, but generally against this many players with two cards on the flop in what brier calls "the playing field" (i think that's the right phrase) this sort of flop raise is not worth the one big bet investment. change things around and it might become the right play, but all in all i really hate the play of the flop here.

btw big blinds bet on the flop is mostly indicative of an open end straight draw so the chances of a raise on the flop here coming back at hero for 3 bets makes it even more a reverse implied odds scenario. while 77 would be ahead it'd be up against 12-14 outs twice an vulnerable to being outplayed by an aggressive player on the turn or river. also since loose bad player may be stubborn as most bad players are he can easily have all sorts of hands with a J or a 9 that he wont fold despite mega-flop action. this is just an awful situation to be in.

obvioulsy i advocate tricky plays and deception value and loose aggressive play and all that, but it needs to be used selectively and this would be a place to fold 77 not raise.