should I sometimes push this flop?

RED FACE · #1 04-23-2005, 02:04 PM

Should I sometimes push this flop for what I assume is a tiny bit of fold value? I think definitely not. Fold preflop is not bad I think. Any thoughts on this standard hand?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter

BB ($54.6)
UTG ($37.59)
UTG+1 ($93.55)
MP1 ($67.55)
MP2 ($49.5)
Hero ($51.95)
CO ($22.85)
Button ($52.49)
SB ($145.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, 2 folds, MP2 raises to $2, Hero calls $2, 1 fold, Button calls $2, 2 folds, UTG calls $1.50.

Flop: ($8.75) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, MP2 bets $8.35, Hero calls $8.35, Button folds, UTG folds.

Turn: ($25.45) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets $13, Hero calls $13.

River: ($51.45) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 calls $26.15 (All-In), Hero calls $26.15.

Final Pot: $103.75

Results in white below: 
MP2 has Kh Kc (two pair, kings and fours).
Hero has Kd Qd (two pair, queens and fours).
Outcome: MP2 wins $103.75.

meleader2 · #2 04-23-2005, 02:05 PM

i'd fold it on the turn if the flush didn't hit...you could very easily be up against AQ

how was MP2 playing?

-Skeme- · #3 04-23-2005, 02:13 PM

Don't call preflop raises with KQ.

RED FACE · #4 04-23-2005, 02:45 PM

I put him on an OP so figured I had 11 outs so needed 3.5:1 and was getting 2:1 on the flop. Is implying another $12 here to justify my call totally out of line and very loose?

If he had AA then I had 3 more outs.

-Skeme- · #5 04-23-2005, 03:01 PM

Fold preflop.

RED FACE · #6 04-23-2005, 03:35 PM

Okay, I agree. Fold preflop and I really should've folded on the river(but with weekend play you just never know, it seems).

Flop and turn play are standard fine, right? Hard to fold on the flop and can't fold on the turn, right?

If I've decided I can't fold that flop should I ever push it for fold value? AQ would certainly fold but AA and KK would find it hard to put me on a set because a set wouldn't play that way. Look at it like this:
his flop bet puts 16 in the pot
I will at least call so that would make the pot 24
I have 42 left and with 2 cards to come with 11 outs I'm a 1.4:1 dog so on the additional $42 raise I need to make $60 which I would. Is this crazy or standard?

thanks

theredpill5 · #7 04-23-2005, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, I agree. Fold preflop and I really should've folded on the river(but with weekend play you just never know, it seems).

[/ QUOTE ]

You are thinking about this hand all wrong. Think long term. How much money are you really going to make with KQ over the long run? Over the long run, calling raises with KQ is a break even situation in low stakes hold'em at best and is certainly - EV in higher stakes. Suppose this guy was raising with Q J and you made the wrong fold, no big deal. You haven't lost that much EV. On the other hand, calling the raise, calling the flop, calling the turn, calling or folding on the river when your flush misses is a lot of $$$$ .

You really need to decide preflop whether you like your hand. Then when you are on the flop, make another decision whether you like your hand. Preflop and flop are the best places to decide to fold since you haven't lost that much. Folding on the turn and river are costly because you have already invested so much money.

You shouldn't be pushing all-in with a flush draw. It's only 9 outs. Only consider pushing with a 15 outer or more. And then you could be up against a set and only have 9 .

AncientPC · #8 04-23-2005, 04:19 PM

Raise the flop, check behind turn (or fire a second barrel if you can push him off).

[ QUOTE ]
Don't call preflop raises with KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guilty of these as well, but I'm sick of these replies.

-Skeme- · #9 04-23-2005, 04:31 PM

Why? That's really all there is to it. Fold preflop. Do not call preflop raises with KQ.

AncientPC · #10 04-23-2005, 04:33 PM

There are more playing styles that ABC nut peddling TAG.

Calling raises w/ KQs can be profitable.