3-handed 25-50 hand RIVER PLAY DISCUSSION AND POLL

[Ulysses]

OK. There are a number of things that could be questioned in this hand, but much of the prior streets have to do with the short-handed dynamics at play and rhythm of the game. So please focus on the river play, which I believe is applicable to many, many situations with these types of effective stack sizes.

You (5k) call on button w/ 56. SB (8k) calls, BB (2500) checks. Both your opponents are bad at poker.

Please don't comment on the pre-flop call, it's just a randomization limp here to keep from being in any patterns.

Flop 234r

Check, check, you check. I think a bet is correct here, no need to comment on that, though. Trust me, the interesting part will come up soon.

Turn 234A (two spades)

SB checks, BB bets 100, you raise to 400, SB folds, BB calls. OK, obviously there's a lot to be said for making it 500-700. No need to mention that. FWIW, I have decided that the best move here is to push all-in. The more I think about it, the more I think a turn push is really THE play here. But let's move along, we're almost to the river.

River 234AQ (three spades)

950 in pot. SB has 2k left. Checked to you. What do you do? (For the purposes of the poll, assume any checkraise will be a checkraise allin)

[Michael Emery]

I'd bet $400 and fold to a push. Checking behind just seems too weak, especially short handed like this. But I dont play a lot of no limit. I try to stick mostly to stud, a mans game. No limit is gay.

Mike Emery

[theBruiser500]

that river is very interesting. one option off the top of my head without thinking about it is to push and make it look like another 5 trying to push himo ff his 5

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]
No limit is gay.

[/ QUOTE ]

University of Maryland grad?

ML4L

[ObnxNole]

I think a bet of $500-$700 would be in line here. There was no raise preflop so your opponenet probably does not have a big Ace. I think the most information you could gather came on the turn when villian bet $100 when the Ace popped up. He called your raise meaning he has a good hand, however you still do not have a solid read on his hand. I think the m ost likely hand here is Ax or two pair and not spades. I'm interested to hear some other thoughts...Good post.

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]
University of Maryland grad?



[/ QUOTE ]

Almost, this is my senior year thank God.

Mike Emery

[elindauer]

Hi Diablo,

Interesting river. I decided that I liked betting the pot and calling a check-raise, or betting about $600 and folding to a check-raise.

Some thoughts that went through my head: With your $300 raise, you can lose another $600 and still have it be about break-even for him to have drawn to the flush on the turn. With this amount being a reasonable bet versus the size of the pot, and an amount he'll pay off with weaker hands like a five and maybe even an ace, it seems like a nice number. The flush card hitting should freeze him up, so you probably won't be check-raised very often by a hand you can beat. Of course, this is player-specific and short-handed 25-50 may be very aggressive in this area, so who knows.

Betting the pot feels like about the most you can get away with and still be called by a weaker hand. A five is going to hate that river but will likely pay off. After putting in so much money, and of course getting better odds, you probably need to pay off the check-raise now. You of course will not be happy about it.

Moving in is an interesting option 3-handed if you think this guy is not capable of a big laydown. A little more player info would be nice. You say these guys are bad at poker, but are they bad because they're too loose, or too passive, or bluff too much or...?

Good luck.
Eric

[Matt Flynn]

sounds like your opponents are the type to call with a range of hands but rarely checkraise without the goods or at least an engraved invitation. so i would bet it. hold on while i pull an amount out of my butt. <washing> ok. $650 sounds good. in general against weak loose players i bet half to 2/3 of the pot, and against weak tight players bet a fourth to half the pot.


as for the other streets, i play 56o and the button maybe half the time there, more if they are bad and less if they are aggressive. on the flop i bet far more often than not but understand why you checked. on the turn going all in is evil. conceptually i love it. but will he or she really call all in with a 5? if not i prefer to milk the monkey.

ok so what was your line and how do you feel about the general case?

matt

[turnipmonster]

I wanted to send an engraved invitation and bet small. bad move?

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]
I wanted to send an engraved invitation and bet small. bad move?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that the typical bad player is going to call $400 with many more hands than he will call $650. But, what a typical bad player might do is read weakness into your bet and increase his propensity to check-raise bluff (i.e. Matt is right that most bad players won't run a check-raise bluff from scratch here, but they might get a notion if they think they can get away with it once you've bet). Additionally, you have the issue of them getting greedy with a 5 and raising to get a little more money in the pot. So, I think that betting small does not increase your value of being called by worse hands and does confound the 'fold to a check-raise' thing.

I'm not 100% sold on Matt's line, but he makes a really good case for it...

Mike