Challenging 20-40 Hand

[MichaelD]

Challenging 20-40 Hand

I am in a pretty tight 20-40 game this evening. This game has been unusually tight so far and even the action players are playing tight. Normally I would attempt to loosen up a game such as this but since I was in a must move game and I was 2nd to move, I was not really interested in investing anything to loosen up a game I may be leaving soon.

Anyway, I got mixed up in a fairly interesting hand. I am in the small blind and everyone folds to an action player two off the button who raises. This is a player who although he is action, knows how to play after the flop. Normally he would raise with a large number of hands in this spot but he had been playing particularly tight this evening in line with the game. The button now three bets. The button is a VERY tight player who earlier in the evening accidentally flipped over pocket eights as he mucked them pre-flop for a raise from a really loose player. While obviously a play such as this is debatable, the point is that his three bet is one to be respected a large majority of the time. I look down in the small blind to find pocket Kings. I cold call 2.5 bets and the big blind now folds. The action player now calls which is very out of character for him. When he raises and is three-bet, he four-bets/caps the pot about 85% of the time. Anyway, there are now 5 big bets in the pot pre-flop

My cold call most likely raised all sorts of alarm bells, as the worst hand I had turned over outside of the blinds and the button had been AK suited.
The flop came 10-8-7 with two diamonds. I led into the field and was instantly called by both players. The action player looked for a split second as though he wanted to raise but decided just to call instead. There are now 6.5 bets in the pot on the flop.

The turn pairs the board with another 10. I think for a moment and decide the best play for me is to bet. The action player now raises me. The button thinks for about 30 seconds or so and then calls 2 bets cold. There are now 11.5 bet in the pot. What is my best play?

My decision, the results, and my thoughts will be posted later.


Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

[MichaelD]

RESULTS

I thought about the situation for the better part of a minute or so and decided I was beat in one spot, and very possibly beat in two spots drawing only to a King. I folded. While I was not sure who had me beat exactly, I had a hunch the action player had a 10 by the way he seemed to want to raise on the flop. The hesitation on the turn by the button before the cold call did not tell me a whole lot. I did not think he had Aces by the way he played the flop but I honestly had no idea what he had. The fact that he called 2 bets cold and that I really believed the action player had a 10 was enough for me to fold.

The river brought a third diamond. The action player checked and the button bet. The action player called and the button turned over AQ of diamonds for the nut flush. The action player flashed a 10 and as he went to muck, I noticed his other card had paint on it and was a face card although I could not determine exactly what. Afterwards, I was pretty upset at how bad I had read the button. I really did not even put him on diamonds because of the way the hand played out. In retrospect, I do not think I misplayed the hand. I think arguments can be made for capping pre-flop and check-raising the flop, but based on how these players play, I am fairly confident that no matter how I play it, the result ends up being the same.

My biggest concern in retrospect is that the action player and the button could have had JJ and QQ or QQ and JJ in which case I would have folded a winner. The action player could also have had JJ or QQ and the button the same AQ of diamonds and if a diamond does not come, I would have folded a winner.

I am a bit curious as to the way the button played the flop. (I would have raised the flop if I were in the buttons position.) If the button had raised the flop, I would have three bet. I am pretty sure the action player would have called. If the hand had played out this way, there would have been an additional 4.5 big bets in the pot on the flop and regardless of whether I check and call the turn or bet and call the raise; I most likely would have been in to the river. All things considered, I think I saved some bets on this hand because of this. I usually hate laying a hand like this down because it could easily be the best hand here as both of these players have demonstrated an ability to overplay hands in the past. This is not at all meant as an insult as both are very capable players and I know for sure one reads this forum regularly. Ironically enough, the lack of aggression on the flop, the buttons cold all on the turn, and the action players raise on the turn and indication on the flop that he wanted to raise was enough to scare me away.

As it turns out, I am fortunate my read and thus ensuing laydown on this hand was correct, and although I do not get put in this situation very often, I am not sure a laydown here would be the correct play a majority of the time. I think more times than not, given the way the hand played out, I would have folded a winner here.

Thanks in advance for all thoughts and comments.

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

[PokerPrince]

I have no problem with your cold call preflop as it not only creates some deception but wild players usually cap it like you mentioned. This is a very interesting hand and could have been played a variety of ways. Your leading out on the flop is nice and you picked up a little hesitancy from the live player which is very vital in your decision-making when the turn card falls, the treachurous 10. A lot of players will open raise it preflop from that position with as little as JTo or QTo. When you are raised not only is he representing one of those holdings, but the tight players coldcalling is indicative of a very large flush draw. Most players, even weak-tight ones, will pump the flop here holding AA or QQ but he did play his hand very meakly. Holding those two over cards and the nut flush draw he should have two-bet the flop and perhaps capped it if he got the chance. You made a good laydown whether you would have won or not and that tell you picked up helped mold your decisions and saved you money. Nice work.

PokerPrince

[Soh]

MikeD,

Ok, I'm the guy with AdQd...

> ...he...raise with a large number of hands in this spot

That's the impression that I have about him. Correct me if I'm wrong (as I have a bad memory,) but (later in the session) he raised with J7o after a limper or two, didn't he?

> ...flipped over pocket eights...for a raise from a really loose
> player. While obviously a play such as this is debatable...

Yes, it was a mistake to flip over my hands, but was it a "big" mistake to fold the hand? Although your point here is to say that I'm a tight player, this is my thoughts about mucking the hands.
1. I thought about three-betting.
2. But my impression was he wasn't playing as loose as he usually plays in 10-20 game.
3. It was 7 handed when the "loose player" open-raised (which means that his raising standard can be a bit wider than usual.) But I wasn't sure whether he was also a "loose raiser" that night or not.
4. Everyone folded, and he flashed AQo. I had a better hand, but not by much. It wasn't a huge mistake.
5. After the hand, I used my image a few times (you saw one of them,) so actually it paid off pretty well.

> his three bet is...to be respected a large majority of the time.

A large majority of the time? Yes, but not in that spot. Loose raiser open-raised in late position. I can 3-bet with a wide variety of hands.

> ...he four-bets/caps the pot about 85% of the time.

You mean 95%, right? [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]


> I led into the field and was instantly called by both players.

My call is definitely debatable. But it was obvious that Mike had me beat. There's no hand that he can cold call my 3-bet (2.5 bets) and lead the flop that I can beat. When action player called, I wasn't sure what he had. He could have 2 over cards or he could have an over pair, waiting for the turn to pop. But I didn't put him on T as he didn't raise the flop. By the way, had I had raised the flop, Mike, an aggressive player, would've 3-bet, and probably bet the turn. There's no way that I could've got a free card on the turn. All I would've accomplished was to make it expensive to draw.

> ...the best play for me is to bet.

I agree with you as you had little reson (except "The action player looked for a split second as though he wanted to raise") to believe that one of us had T.

> The button thinks...and then calls 2 bets cold.

On the flop, I was thinking about raising on the turn! I was thinking Ace is probably good, even Queen might be good, and of course, the diamonds, so I though I had as many as 15 outs, (although I didn't have that much.) Plus, raise might make a better hand than AQ to fold.

But now the board paired AND Mike still bet AND the action player raised. I thoght about all the options. 3-betting would probably make Mike to fold. But I'm definitely beat by the action player. Plus, Mike can have a monster and call, or cap.

I hate to fold a nut flush draw, only to see "the card" on the river. The board was paired, and someone can easily had a full house already, but there were some money in the pot, and I though those times that I loose will be covered by those times that I win.
...so I called.

River is automatic.

Soh

p.s. ...hope you played well yesterday.

[David Sklansky]

I see no reason not to play this hand passively. In general if a bet on the turn could lead to a raise that probably but not definitely means you are beaten, it is usually better to check.

[danj]

I'm with you - MikeD cold calling 3 bets and then betting out after the flop is usually not a good sign about 85% of the time. However, although you had him read right after the flop, you needed to raise him after he bet out post flop. With all those bets in the pot already, it wouldn't have hurt to build the pot even with the knowledge that Mike was going to 3-bet you. Plus, you 3 bet pre-flop - it adds to the deception of your hand by raising him - you need to make a really good player like Mike think about what it is that you have - if you raise him only after you have a made hand, you will never get any money from him. He will, of course, take note of your play and tuck it away.

[MichaelD]

Soh,

By no means did I mean to imply you played this hand wrong at all.

Nor am I claiming you made a mistake by folding 88. You are 100% correct, when you had the 88, the raiser had been playing tighter than normal and you pretty much need to hit an 8 to be sure of where you are and maximize your profit potential playing this hand, especailly against an agressive player such as this. Players who constantly 3-bet hands like this usually get tortured long term.

In regards to this hand when you 3-bet against this action player, I still think you have a strong hand, especially since the action player had also been playing tight up to this point. No matter how hard you try, you are not going to convince me that your 3-bet is not to be respected. I know for a fact your pre-flop play is exceptionally strong and while I may not be the brightest light on the tree, there is still a flicker; and your 3-bet definitely sets off alarm bells.

You are 100% correct, 85% estimate for capping for this player is definitely too conservative. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

In regards to your flop play, not sure there is a right or wrong here, just depends on your style and read of the situation.

The turn call is a definite and the river is automatic.

My post was really not regarding your play, as we both mentioned, just rather or not I should have bet/folded the turn or check/called or bet/called the turn.

I am really surprised about one thing in this hand, and it is not at all that I lost it. I am just surprised that each of you didn't have an ace, and that an ace wasn't exposed, and that the case Ace did not come!!!
[img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] Just Kidding.

On a side note, I actually think the fact that the action player lost this particular hand loosened him up for the rest of the session. He had not really shown anything like J7 until after this hand played out. It may have been the tightest I have ever seen him play!! I was happy to see him back to his usual self after he lost with his trips here.

In regards to hoping I played well, thanks, and I hope I did/can too. By the way, what kind of resume do I need for that job pushing the button. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]


Nice hand and nice win last night. Do you ever lose??

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

[Soh]

>Do you ever lose??

Hint - I have a job.

Soh

[J_V]

Of course you should. Your hand is only a small dog to Mike D's obvious overpair. If you raise only when you have him beat its not tough to come up with a winning strat against you. Also, if you image is so tight, it's time to start thinking about making a play for the pot. You should have been considering raising the turn yourself in this hand. It seems you are not considering all your options.
I play this hand like I flopped a set and if he calls me down, you won't have lost that much in EV and you've sent the I'm ready to play poker, not just sit on my leather ass message.

I would call and check call the river, unless of course a king or ace hits