2 pair on monotone baord

iceman5 · #1 04-20-2005, 02:30 PM

$2/$4 NL at Party....All parties have about $400

I have 62 in the BB and the pot is unraised.
4 to the flop.

The pot is $18. The flop is 862 all spades. I check to see the action. UTG bets $8, UTG+1 calls. I call which I really dont like.

The pot is now $42. The turn is another 8. I check. UTG bets $12, UTG+1 calls, I check raise to $75.....

What do you think? It doenst look like either one has a flush yet. It looks to me like one has the As and the other the Ks.

These are both new guys Ive never seen before so no reads.
This play makes me queasy thinking about it

esbesb · #2 04-20-2005, 02:38 PM

I am always very concerned when all the cards sound the same. I usually leave immediately in search of a cardroom or website that is not haunted.

AdamBragar · #3 04-20-2005, 02:44 PM

I don't really understand not betting the flop.

As for the turn play, I'm really up in the air about it. 2 possibilities that your in trouble with are if someone already has the flush, or if someone has an A8 or something and is scared of the monotone board, which will definitely happen with some players (but even here, such a player might be scared of a check raise). I like the size of the raise, although you probably could have gotten away with a check raise to 60. But you're essentially gambling that no one has one of the aforementioned hands. I'm torn here, but I'm leaning towards thinking it's a nice raise.

I don't think you can follow through with a bluff on the river if you are called though.

thabadguy · #4 04-20-2005, 02:53 PM

I think you should check raise the flop, this shows tremendous strength and it would look like you have a flush, if reraised, you should throw it away, if called then proceed with caution. I would check fold when the board pairs, because anything less than a set or top 2 is not gonna call your check raise.
I would like to hear other opinions on this hand, it is an interesting situation to me.

flawless_victory · #5 04-20-2005, 02:56 PM

bluffing when i have two pair is not my idea of a good plan. you played the flop like a champ. in the party 2/4 game i would check/fold the turn.

Shoog · #6 04-20-2005, 03:32 PM

I agree that you should have bet out on the flop which would probably have created more information for you to assess their strengths. You seem to be searching for an excuse to stay in after the 8 pairs. Why? you don't have to win this pot. there'll be others and you are putting yourself into a position of drawing dead for all your chips, even if you hit.

After the 8 paired, calling or raising is a suspect move. Although a made flush on the flop is slim and you are most likely ahead at this point, this is a flimsy lead. one more spade or several overcards after the 8 paired will likely be enough to engineer your demise.

Your putting your hopes on a spade not falling and/or your filling up - that's your four outs with one card to fall in your favor vs 10 or more outs against you (provided your not already drawing dead). what if you pair? there only has to be an 8 among their four hole cards, remembering it was an unraised preflop.

When the 8 falls your 2P gets discounted - forget the 2s they're trash now. any pair over a 6 beats you and given the betting between the two of them, I would entertain one of them on an 8. Wouldn't be strange. And there is probably a spade between them. And what about a few overcards between them, anyone of which would kill your hand if it came on the river?

You're probably an intelligent enough player to know that there are much better scenarios to engage your chips in than this one, unless of course you just want to gamble.
chrs,

turnipmonster · #7 04-20-2005, 03:46 PM

the flop is fine, you maybe can bet but I think checkraising is a definite mistake. if you play as locktight as everyone else here and your opponents are all weak tight nits, checkraising the turn is a great move because everyone will fold less than quad 8s. but against typical opponents in a game this size I think you should check fold.

--turnipmonster

AZK · #8 04-20-2005, 03:58 PM

Why is check-raising the flop with bottom 2 on a montone flop a mistake? I find myself check-raising a lot recently with bottom 2 on certain types of boards, eg. J9 on a KJ9 2 tone board etc...

iceman5 · #9 04-20-2005, 04:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that you should have bet out on the flop which would probably have created more information for you to assess their strengths. You seem to be searching for an excuse to stay in after the 8 pairs. Why? you don't have to win this pot. there'll be others and you are putting yourself into a position of drawing dead for all your chips, even if you hit.

After the 8 paired, calling or raising is a suspect move. Although a made flush on the flop is slim and you are most likely ahead at this point, this is a flimsy lead. one more spade or several overcards after the 8 paired will likely be enough to engineer your demise.

Your putting your hopes on a spade not falling and/or your filling up - that's your four outs with one card to fall in your favor vs 10 or more outs against you (provided your not already drawing dead). what if you pair? there only has to be an 8 among their four hole cards, remembering it was an unraised preflop.

When the 8 falls your 2P gets discounted - forget the 2s they're trash now. any pair over a 6 beats you and given the betting between the two of them, I would entertain one of them on an 8. Wouldn't be strange. And there is probably a spade between them. And what about a few overcards between them, anyone of which would kill your hand if it came on the river?

You're probably an intelligent enough player to know that there are much better scenarios to engage your chips in than this one, unless of course you just want to gamble.
chrs,

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with you. Actually I disagree with just about everything you said.
Im not risking all my chips here. Im risking $75 . If I get called, Im done with the hand.
What Im putting my hopes on is the fact that neither of them has a flush yet and that they wont call that raise chasing a flush on a paired board.
I rarely bluff and people I play with know that ( of course these guys dont)

How can you really think one of them has an 8 with the flop action (also they are in EP which makes it less likely)?

turnipmonster · #10 04-20-2005, 04:05 PM

I think of bottom two as a mediocre flop hand, it's good hand, but in a 3 way pot not one I want to commit a ton of chips on the flop with. especially with a monotone board you are building the pot and everyone is usually drawing quite live against you. usually with a hand like bottom two you win the most if you get a little money in on each street, since usually then you are getting action from one pair type hands that want to look you up. I dunno, that's what I think. agree/disagree?

--turnipmonster