KK with issues pre-flop

[ohkanada]

Playing some 2-4 NL on UB. I have a stack of 764 to start the hand. My main opponent has 648. We have only played 30 hands together. He is at 20/7 for whatever that means in that timeframe.

He is UTG+1 and limps. I make it 18 with KK. I get two coldcallers including mega-fish and then UTG+1 makes it 94 to go.

Without any read and decent stacks what is the best play?

Ken

[TrailofTears]

Call and see a flop. You have position here and can see how villain plays from there on. If he has anything but AA, you can extract extra value on an undercard flop. If an ace comes on the flop, play very cautiously (obviously). If you spike your King, go off of your read and drag a big pot in the best way you think is possible. It is hard to get into much more detail here past PF decisions, but this is a great place to call and play from there.

I love to play hands where I have a great idea what villain holds and he has no idea what I hold, especially in position.

-Trail

[theben]

your 2 options are calling or folding, leaning toward folding. he limp reraised a ton, and it is not worth it to draw for a set. its extremely risky that you are way behind. as you said, you have no good reads here, so proceed with extreme caution.

at the NL400$ level at UB, the games get quite tough. don't expect players there to be putting in their case money preflop with just QQ on a limp reraise.

if he is an overly aggressive, weaker player who unsophiscatedly overplays QQ preflop then you can play back. but in this case, dont. theres a small chance hes got something like AK and is doing a shutout bluff, but you only have 18$ in the pot and stand to lose 750$ more if you are wrong.

give it up and wait for another spot.

[TrailofTears]

[ QUOTE ]
at the NL400$ level at UB, the games get quite tough. don't expect players there to be putting in their case money preflop with just QQ on a limp reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't these the same "thinking" players that will be able to lay down there overpair to aggression. Since you are damn sure hero is beat PF(which I don't agree with necessarily, but for the sake of argument...), why not take a flop with these relatively deep stacks and play poker. If you give villain credit as a solid player like you are, why can't hero just push any undercard flop and expect villain to lay down his aces? (Yes this is a hyperbole, but you get the point.)

-Trail

[ohkanada]

So you think the only hand he could have is AA? You don't think he might try to pick up a nice sized pot with some other pair? My raise hasn't really defined my hand. One of the coldcallers was a mega fish which means he could have any 2 cards. And he knows if I don't have a big pair I need to lay this down.

Just wondering,
Ken

[LuckYou777]

even if UTG+1 is capable of laying down aces againt post-flop aggression, what about the mega-fish? you have to be thinking ahead of how this hand is going to be played on further streets- with stacks at this depth, the hand doesn't end preflop. and the fish actually has a little importance here, in my mind.

if he's a weak-tight fish, he probably won't even see a flop here. but if hes a very loose-passive or a loose-aggressive fish, thats important to the play of this hand.

if the fish gives too much action post flop, and you think the limp-reraiser has a premium pair, you'll have excellent implied odds if you should connect. position on the limp-reraiser sweetens the deal as well, of course. that would make me more inclined to call.

[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] monte

[ohkanada]

Yeah hard to say if even this fish would call another 80. He had a decent stack at the time. Maybe the fact the fish is in the hand makes it more likely UTG+1 has AA since the fish is more likely to call with a wider variety of hands compared to a decent player.

Ken

[etgryphon]

Even if the Villian flips over and shows you the AA. It is a close call here. Look at the pot with the implied odds of his stack. Without the two coldcallers coming along you are getting ~9:1 implied odds to hit your set. The fact that he probably does not have the AA makes this a definate call.

-Gryph

[LuckYou777]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if the Villian flips over and shows you the AA. It is a close call here. Look at the pot with the implied odds of his stack. Without the two coldcallers coming along you are getting ~9:1 implied odds to hit your set.

[/ QUOTE ]

incorrect. this is based off the false pretense that if you hit your set, you will automatically win his entire stack. after his limp-reraise, the villain has 138.5 big bets. do you really think that its an absolute certainty that he'd be willing to stack off with unimproved aces if facing alot of aggression? possibly, but to state it as fact is incorrect. this also doesn't factor in times when you hit your set, but lose the pot anyway. while there's some validity to etgryphon's point, there's not enough of a read on the villain to say that he's willing to stack off with unimproved aces and 138 big bets.

[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] monte

[etgryphon]

With two more callers this makes it even more possible. I also said that it is a close call, not definate. The fact that a lot of action has occured also works in your favor. If the flop comes K high, there are ways to get him to commit all his chips. There is enough overlay to make it a profitable play. But, you are also right that it takes a read on the player to make sure that he will stack off with an overpair. My whole reason for bringing it up is that it is the most extreme case and it is not a clear fold, so with an argument from the lesser to the greater, the situation that the OP find himself in is a clear call.

-Gryph