The origin of Logic

[udontknowmickey]

Credit goes to wdeadwyler who proposed the idea in the "prove God..." thread for prompting this idea. He proposed (as he saw it) that God was the source of our concept of infinity.

Now infinity is actually just a mathematical concept. It exists by convention (there is no infinity on the real number line). It doesn't seem like you can prove it, it's just the definition of an uncountable set (like reals between 0 and 1 has an uncountable number of elements).

But what about logic? By necessity logic (specifically the law of non-contradiction and all consequences) must exist, for to deny the law of non-contradiction is at the same time to affirm it.

EX I state that the law of non-contradiction does not hold, means that A can be not A, so thus the statement "law of non-contradiction does not hold" is also the statement "law of non-contradiction does hold" and "i am a 3 legged donkey" and whatever else it may (and may not!) mean.

So where do laws of logic come from?

[jason_t]

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Now infinity is actually just a mathematical concept. It exists by convention (there is no infinity on the real number line). It doesn't seem like you can prove it, it's just the definition of an uncountable set (like reals between 0 and 1 has an uncountable number of elements).

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Wrong. A set A is infinite if there is no bijection from a from a finite set to A. There are different sizes of infinity. The rationals are infinite and so are the reals, but there is no bijection between the two. In mathematical parlance, the rationals are countable but the reals are uncountable.

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So where do laws of logic come from?

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Man.

[udontknowmickey]

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Quote:
So where do laws of logic come from?



Man.

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What does that mean? Established by convention? Someone made it up? Everyone agrees upon it? Is it part of some character of "Man" that give rise to Logic?

[sabre170]

There exist both countable infinite sets and uncountable infinite sets.

[Bodhi]

Logic was discovered, not created.

[Bodhi]

By 'origin' I assume that you are not asking about the first person to codify logic, which would be Aristotle.

The answer to your question depends a lot on whether you are a philosophical realist or nominalist. I suppose a realist would say that Logic has existed since the big bang, whereas a nominalist would say it only came about once man learned to speak.

[udontknowmickey]

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The answer to your question depends a lot on whether you are a philosophical realist or nominalist. I suppose a realist would say that Logic has existed since the big bang, whereas a nominalist would say it only came about once man learned to speak.

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Let me clarify. I'm asking from where the laws of logic came, not necessarily a time when laws of logic started becoming applicable (which would pose it's own problems), but specifically, from what do we have the laws of Logic?

Much akin to the "where do morals come from?" question, except this is universal in every sense of the word (whereas with morality one could deny that there were absolutes, one cannot deny that logic is absolute, since in doing so one would be affirming that logic was absolute)

If the big bang signifies the beginning of time and the laws of logic started with the big bang, from what do those laws of logic come from?

Additionally, logic could not have started when man began to speak because logic (which made sure that the world was not a pancake, that the universe was not a donut or an elephant) clearly existed prior to man's initial vocal action.

[Bodhi]

I don't think logic "comes from" anywhere. Nothing justifies logic, as when Wittgenstein wrote that "Logic must take care of itself." Your initial question sounded more empirical to me, and that's what lead me to say what I did.

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Additionally, logic could not have started when man began to speak because logic (which made sure that the world was not a pancake, that the universe was not a donut or an elephant) clearly existed prior to man's initial vocal action.

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Logic had nothing to do with the shape of the earth or whether the universe was an elephant. Logic provides the syntax for language and conditions for the truth of sentences.

[udontknowmickey]

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I don't think logic "comes from" anywhere. Nothing justifies logic, as when Wittgenstein wrote that "Logic must take care of itself." Your initial question sounded more empirical to me, and that's what lead me to say what I did.

Quote:
Additionally, logic could not have started when man began to speak because logic (which made sure that the world was not a pancake, that the universe was not a donut or an elephant) clearly existed prior to man's initial vocal action.



Logic had nothing to do with the shape of the earth or whether the universe was an elephant. Logic provides the syntax for language and conditions for the truth of sentences.

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So I guess I'll reveal my ulterior motive here.

Essentially:
Logic is true no matter who is speaking. Logic is true no matter what is there. Logic trancends this universe, and in fact, Logic is part of any possible universe. No matter how it may have come about, no matter what is inside of it, Logic is part of it. Logic is universal in the fullest sense of the word.

I propose that the source of Logic is God, a trancendant being, who's very nature defines Logic. And not just any God, but the God of the 66 books in the Christian Bible.

John 1:1-3

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

the greek word translated "Word" is logos which can also be translated, yup you guessed it: logic, reason, wisdom

Since we take logic's existance assumed by every action (unless we're crazy and actually do think this computer is also a cat and 3 toed monkeys), in order to live and survive, we are in fact presupposing the source from which we have Logic: God.

And this concludes my proof for God's existence.

[tomdemaine]

you've "proved" that logic exists and then proposed logic is god. Well done. I propose the god is cheesecake and we have all seen cheesecake in the shops therefore god must exist.

tom 1:14
yea he did look upon the cheesecake and saw that it was tasty and he did eat of it mmmmmmmmm delicious.

This ends my proof of the existence of god