I 3-bet 99 in the SB, it gets capped by BB

zephed56 · #1 04-18-2005, 04:04 PM

It's 4 handed, keep that in mind.

UTG is a TAG, raises about 13% preflop. He might be a 2+2'er, by that I mean a relatively good tight aggressive player. He could be raising with a bunch of hands even though he's UTG.

BB is slightly LAG, 37% loose and raises about the same amount as UTG. I haven't seen him get out of line though. Maybe I wasn't paying attention when he did.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero ?

billyjex · #2 04-18-2005, 04:16 PM

hmm.. I kinda feel like betting out the flop to face UTG w/ 2 cold, but then I wouldn't get any info about BB's hand and I don't like 3-betting.

The C/R here might work because if you raise and no one 3-bets we might be in the lead. but If I get 3-bet I feel like mucking my hand on the spot, maybe calling and seeing if the turn brings any of our backdoor draws.

ElSapo · #3 04-18-2005, 06:04 PM

Question on backdoor draws and getting into trouble.

Say we check, BB bets and we check-raise. BB now three-bets, and UTG does whatever. Chances are, we're behind, I'd say, though I don't play too much SH.

Now let's say a card comes which gives us an open-ender. Or a low heart. I suppose we like a heart better if UTG folded to a three-bet, but basically what I mean is, now we're drawing and we call.

Does this commit us to a showdown? If we whiff on the river but it bricks low, with the BB being "somewhat loose" are we throwing in that last river bet?

So often I find that calling the flop three-bet ends up commiting me to 2 more BB when I could almost have folded to the initial three-bet.

ElSapo

zephed56 · #4 04-18-2005, 06:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
hmm.. I kinda feel like betting out the flop to face UTG w/ 2 cold, but then I wouldn't get any info about BB's hand and I don't like 3-betting.

The C/R here might work because if you raise and no one 3-bets we might be in the lead. but If I get 3-bet I feel like mucking my hand on the spot, maybe calling and seeing if the turn brings any of our backdoor draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking about shutting UTG out also. That's a line that I wish I would have considered more when I played the hand. With big pots I have to focus more on pushing third parties out. I've lost a few pots where I failed to force someone out, and they ended up winning the hand.

Since he's tight (preflop), I think he's capable of folding overcards and gutshots to two flop bets.

Also, my flop play leaves me vulnerable to being pushed out. I don't like that, especially in a situation with a lag, and a smart player acting after the lag. Good players are capable of adjusting their standards against lags.

Regarding betting out, I think if I get raised, I have to just call. If I didn't push UTG the first time, he definitely ain't folding the second time around. If I did succeed in pushing him out, I can call him down the rest of the way. I don't think 3-betting him is +EV. If you disagree, please let me know what I may be missing.
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I don't think I like the checkraise the flop line. It doesn't do anything to knock opponents out who are drawing live against me, and in the instances where I'm way behind, it costs me 3 bets on the flop. Granted, I think that it may do a good deal to shut aggressiveness down, so I won't always be 3-bet by better hands...
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zephed56 · #5 04-18-2005, 06:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Question on backdoor draws and getting into trouble.

Say we check, BB bets and we check-raise. BB now three-bets, and UTG does whatever. Chances are, we're behind, I'd say, though I don't play too much SH.

Now let's say a card comes which gives us an open-ender. Or a low heart. I suppose we like a heart better if UTG folded to a three-bet, but basically what I mean is, now we're drawing and we call.

Does this commit us to a showdown? If we whiff on the river but it bricks low, with the BB being "somewhat loose" are we throwing in that last river bet?

So often I find that calling the flop three-bet ends up commiting me to 2 more BB when I could almost have folded to the initial three-bet.

ElSapo

[/ QUOTE ]
If we checkraise the flop, and it gets 3-bet, we're getting pretty close to 23 SB in the pot, nothing a little implied odds can't make up. So I think we have to call for set outs.

If the turn comes a brick, I think we can fold the turn.

billyjex · #6 04-18-2005, 06:44 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
hmm.. I kinda feel like betting out the flop to face UTG w/ 2 cold, but then I wouldn't get any info about BB's hand and I don't like 3-betting.

The C/R here might work because if you raise and no one 3-bets we might be in the lead. but If I get 3-bet I feel like mucking my hand on the spot, maybe calling and seeing if the turn brings any of our backdoor draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

Regarding betting out, I think if I get raised, I have to just call. If I didn't push UTG the first time, he definitely ain't folding the second time around. If I did succeed in pushing him out, I can call him down the rest of the way. I don't think 3-betting him is +EV. If you disagree, please let me know what I may be missing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I kinda like that line. Hopefully we'll fold UTG and can call down the BB, though it would feel icky to me to have no idea if I'm way ahead or way behind. I'd also hate to give his AKs a free card.

Maybe stop & go the turn, fold to a raise. These situations are confusing.

[ QUOTE ]

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I don't think I like the checkraise the flop line. It doesn't do anything to knock opponents out who are drawing live against me, and in the instances where I'm way behind, it costs me 3 bets on the flop. Granted, I think that it may do a good deal to shut aggressiveness down, so I won't always be 3-bet by better hands...
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[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, maybe we'd scare better hands from 3-betting and they'd start calling down. The reason why I might lean towards C/R is because I feel if BB 3-bets we're way behind, but UTG will probably come along since the pot is so big.

If BB just calls I'd feel he has overcards such as AK or AQs, though maybe we'd just be scaring his JJ/QQ into call down mode.

It's close, it'd be interesting to hear more opinions.

zephed56 · #7 04-18-2005, 10:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's 4 handed, keep that in mind.

UTG is a TAG, raises about 13% preflop. He might be a 2+2'er, by that I mean a relatively good tight aggressive player. He could be raising with a bunch of hands even though he's UTG.

BB is slightly LAG, 37% loose and raises about the same amount as UTG. I haven't seen him get out of line though. Maybe I wasn't paying attention when he did.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hero calls the flop. I'm getting myself into a difficult situation here.

I'll propose a few turn cards and state my plan for each of them. Please point out any glaring errors, or discuss lines where the decision is close.

1)
Turn: (7.5 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero check-raises, hoping UTG is caught in the middle. If given the chance, is it better to cap, or call the 3-bet and check-raise the river? BB is a lag.

If UTG is stuck in the middle, I think it's an easy cap, not so sure with just BB in there.

2)
Turn: (7.5 BB) Any non A or K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero check-calls 1 bet with his flush draw (that might not be good). Folds river UI.

3)
Turn: (7.5 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Fold? Call the K and fold the ace? Call both?
I'd definitely fold to 2 bets.

Folding river UI.

4)
Turn: (7.5 BB) Any J or 7 (3 players)
Check call turn with my open-ender, or open-ender + flush draw. What if it's two bets to me????

5)
Turn: (7.5 BB) Any non-[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 or Q (3 players)
Easy fold for 2 bets, call 1. Fold river UI.

6)
Turn: (7.5 BB) Non [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Blank (3 players)
Fold.

zephed56 · #8 04-19-2005, 08:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's 4 handed, keep that in mind.

UTG is a TAG, raises about 13% preflop. He might be a 2+2'er, by that I mean a relatively good tight aggressive player. He could be raising with a bunch of hands even though he's UTG.

BB is slightly LAG, 37% loose and raises about the same amount as UTG. I haven't seen him get out of line though. Maybe I wasn't paying attention when he did.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hero calls the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've got 2 outs to a boat, and a backdoor straight. The backdoor flush may or may not be good, so I won't add any outs for that. This gives me about 3 outs, and I have enough to call. Would anyone call this with only 2 outs?

krishanleong · #9 04-19-2005, 08:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's 4 handed, keep that in mind.

UTG is a TAG, raises about 13% preflop. He might be a 2+2'er, by that I mean a relatively good tight aggressive player. He could be raising with a bunch of hands even though he's UTG.

BB is slightly LAG, 37% loose and raises about the same amount as UTG. I haven't seen him get out of line though. Maybe I wasn't paying attention when he did.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero ?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hero calls the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've got 2 outs to a boat, and a backdoor straight. The backdoor flush may or may not be good, so I won't add any outs for that. This gives me about 3 outs, and I have enough to call. Would anyone call this with only 2 outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

You forgot to add in the % time you are ahead.

Krishan

Alobar · #10 04-19-2005, 08:52 PM

I havent read any of the other responses

I think I bet out and hope the BB raises to face UTG with 2 cold. UTG will be getting better than 7-1, but if he is a TAG he may have the discipline to fold 2 crummy overcards. I think this is your best chance for protecting your hand. c/r the flop will only commit everyone to the river, and you may just be setting yourself up to get raised on the turn and there will be lots of turn cards that will come where we dont want to get raised (any heart or QJ76). And I think given the size of the pot its worth it to try something as opposed to just check/calling the entire hand.