Commerce Hand

Crafty Veteran · #1 04-13-2005, 12:32 AM

$100-200 Commerce hand. I raise with red 7's in EP and the a guy who thinks I am kind of tight coldcalls on my immediate left in EMP. The button calls as do both blinds.

The flop is Kh5s3h. I bet and EMP raises. Folded back to me and I 3-bet and EMP 4-bets and I call.

Turn is 5d, I check and call his bet. River is Ks, I check and call his bet. How'd I do?

bicyclekick · #2 04-13-2005, 12:37 AM

I think I fold that turn.

Since you called...you must think he's really overplaying 22/44/66 or Hearts without a pair or a complete stone bluff with 6 outs and I dont think he is enough to warrent a calldown. Once you made it to the river...and it's not a heart you gotta call. I'd like you're line a ton better with 99-qq as you beat way more of his holdings...but those 7's are just too weak.

What if it was a 5h?

Michael Emery · #3 04-13-2005, 12:44 AM

I'm giving this up on the flop when I'm raised by EMP who thinks "I'm kinda tight". I'd be interested in knowing why you three-bet instead. I hope he was on hearts and your hand was good.

Mike Emery

Crafty Veteran · #4 04-13-2005, 12:58 AM

My thinking follows below.

He caps headsup on a K-rag-rag board after shutting out the field. What would he cap with there after I raise preflop in EP knowing he thinks I'm tight?

I don't think a king is too likely once I 3-bet. He has position, wouldn't he just call down with a king since AA or AK are likely holdings for me in his mind? Same for a pair between kings and 7's, right? If he has those hands he'd likely call down also, and that's if he'd raise the flop in the first place.

A set? Would he shut out a field with a set there on that board? Possibly.

A flush draw? He thinks I'm tight, so he might be willing to shut out the field in order to take the pot from me if I missed. And that would be consistent with his capping since on the flop people seem willing to put in tons of action with draws instead of made hands.

I just figured that if it's truly set or flush draw that I was committed to seeing showdown on any non-heart board. What do you think?

bicyclekick · #5 04-13-2005, 01:02 AM

You didn't really give us much info about him other than HE thinks your tight. You are right though, he shouldn't be going ape with something like KQs or AK (commerce 1/2 doesn't sound like a place where AK is getting cold called, but from what I've herad they do put a lot more action in on the flop than I'm used to).

So yeah, then good read. I like your thinking here. Good hand and great articulation. Thanks much.

Crafty Veteran · #6 04-13-2005, 01:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"You didn't really give us much info about him other than HE thinks your tight"

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I really didn't know much about him at the time but he made a comment like "look out, he entered the pot" about me earlier, so that stuck out in my mind.

Crafty Veteran · #7 04-13-2005, 01:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be interested in knowing why you three-bet instead. I hope he was on hearts and your hand was good.

Mike Emery

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there's 6.5BBs in the pot when it comes back to me. Rightly or wrongly, I just think there's too much chance he's trying to blow the tighty off a hand to fold with that much money in the pot. So between calling and 3-betting, 3-betting seemed a better option since there's a chance he folds something like 99 either there or on the turn. Even a hand like AQ on his part would be a welcome fold in a pot that size. Of course, once he caps, I need to reevaluate.

Crafty Veteran · #8 04-13-2005, 11:33 AM

Anyone else?

DpR · #9 04-13-2005, 11:54 AM

Tough to comment much on the hand w/o a read on the player. If he is fairly tight it is difficult to see what hand he could have here that beats you. KQs makes sense pre-flop and I have seen people as aggresive on that flop with that hand as well. Other alternative is A5s, but he certainly couldnt be called tight if he cold called that pre flop. Set making pairs seem a but too low to cold call here as well, but who knows. I also am assumign 46s (i forget exactly but those that would give straight and flush draw)is not possibly pre flop, but looks like it post flop.

So the favorites are cleary KQs or a busted flush draw - and I don't love the way he played the flush draw if that is what he had. I think this is one of those scenarios where you can't figure out what he has, so you call down (unless heart hits). Usually when my opponent has totally confused me on a very straightforward board I just call down and usually win (or find out he has KK and am baffled at his line).

Stork · #10 04-13-2005, 12:10 PM

Depending on the type of opponent, a stop and go might work well. If you just call his flop raise and lead the turn I mean. If you don't think he will raise the turn without a made hand, then a turn bet will avoid giving a free card to worse hands, and you can fold right there if raised. Although, if would raise the turn with just a flush draw or AQ, then the stop n go is pointless.