AK one pair on blank board.

threeonefour · #1 04-12-2005, 11:27 PM

The two players involved in the flop just sat down so i didn't have any reads. they didn't appear to be tight players though. I couldn't really imagine not being in the lead more than my fair share on the flop. bad lay down?

i am just getting back into no limit play and i guess i felt that with an allin and a raise allin over the top someone has to have more than one pair.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (9 handed) converter

MP1 ($56.40)
MP2 ($40.35)
Hero ($275.55)
CO ($51.85)
Button ($71.10)
SB ($114.35)
BB ($92.50)
UTG ($100)
UTG+1 ($12.20)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP1 calls $1, MP2 calls $1, Hero raises to $3.5, 3 folds, BB calls $2.50, MP1 calls $2.50, MP2 calls $2.50.

Flop: ($14.50) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets $14.5, MP2 raises All in, Hero folds, BB folds, MP1 calls $0.

Turn: ($43.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)

River: ($43.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)

Final Pot: $43.50

threeonefour · #2 04-13-2005, 03:07 PM

bump. I know this post isn't terribly interesting, unique, or involved but I would really like to know if calling off here at a low limit NL table is a good idea. One thing i didn't notice at first is if I lose the the first all in and beat the second all in i show a profit.

Also, if the 2nd all in really had a strong hand that could beat AK wouldn't he smooth call? The raise seems to look like an isolation play that someone might make with Ax.

i just noticed the convertor messed up. when mp1 bet 14.5 (which is what he bet) he was all in, his initial stack size is incorrect. when mp2 went all in over the top it was for about $30 more so his stack looks right.

Richie Rich · #3 04-13-2005, 03:19 PM

Bad laydown, imo. The ONLY hands that are beating you on the aforementioned flop are 4-5, 33/22, or A-3/A-2. And if MP2 really had any of those hands, I don't think he would've pushed all-in on the flop to scare you out...he would've wanted you to stay in that hand if he had two pair or better. My guess is that MP2 had an Ace with a weaker kicker (most likely A-Q, A-J, or A-10) and was going to the felt in this hand anyways, so he might as well push to isolate against MP1.

Folding your A-K would've been much better if the flop was something like A-Q-J or A-J-T. I hope you see why.

kurto · #4 04-13-2005, 03:43 PM

"The ONLY hands that are beating you on the aforementioned flop are 4-5, 33/22, or A-3/A-2." Why assume none of them have them? This seems an odd thought.

Assuming his opponents aren't all idiots, hero raised preflop. There's no reason they wouldn't put him on a stong ace. TWO opponents went all in... you think its unlikely that one of them can't beat TPTK?

"he would've wanted you to stay in that hand if he had two pair or better." Not if he fears a draw. Also... I'll bet strongly with the nuts if I think someone will call it. How many times do we advocate the Move of Honor on this board?

If the read was they are both maniacs, I might agree with you. Absent a read, I think you have to give better consideration to the idea that someone hit better then a pair.

threeonefour · #5 04-13-2005, 03:46 PM

yea I have to agree with your analysis. I thought about the hand for about 15 seconds before i made the laydown. i really should have taken more time because after i folded i realized i had to be winning there 60%+ of the time at least.

this hand came up within the first 500 hands of the first NL cash game session i have played in about 4 months(i'm a 5/10 limit guy) so i didn't really recall what kind of hands people are likely to push.

MP1 had 44 and MP2 had AJo for what it is worth.

threeonefour · #6 04-13-2005, 03:53 PM

i think you make some good points. I think if i had 33 or 22 i would be willing to make a big overbet because i figure any ace with a good kicker might call and I probably won't be getting action from anything else anyway.

I definitely wasn't 100% sure I had the best hand, nor do I think if i played this scenario a 1000 times that I would have the best hand more than 75% of the time. but i do think i am good more than half the time probably. the short stack could have a wide range of hands like Ax and the medium stack's push looks like its either the nuts/two pair or an isolation play with Ax.

I don't think MP1 or MP2 would ever fear a draw on that board. I mean the only draws are two gutshots and backdoor draws.

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming his opponents aren't all idiots, hero raised preflop. There's no reason they wouldn't put him on a stong ace. TWO opponents went all in... you think its unlikely that one of them can't beat TPTK?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is ultimately why i folded. I knew they had to know that flop was likely to hit me and they both went all in anyway. but now I think MP2 may have made this play because he knew it would force me to lay down AT AJ AQ and possibly AK

MikeL · #7 04-13-2005, 04:18 PM

I think you played if fine. I had a very similar hand, yesterday.
TPTK, raise (in EP, a problem already), re-raise all-in, re-raise
all-in.

Thought about it; concluded that the both were "making moves"
on me....called.

Both had sets that filled up by the river. I got stacked.

TPTK against 2 or more all-ins + call = rebuy.

Regards,
Mike L.

Richie Rich · #8 04-13-2005, 04:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The ONLY hands that are beating you on the aforementioned flop are 4-5, 33/22, or A-3/A-2." Why assume none of them have them? This seems an odd thought.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not really. Most people would be much more willing to call a PF raise with a higher suited connector like J-10, 8-9s, etc...4-5 is just too low to be a +EV move over the long run. As to why either villian was not likely to be holding two pair or better...read my next analysis.

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming his opponents aren't all idiots, hero raised preflop. There's no reason they wouldn't put him on a stong ace. TWO opponents went all in... you think its unlikely that one of them can't beat TPTK?

[/ QUOTE ]
Since hero raised pre-flop, that's all the more reason why MP2's push was NOT done to conceal a monster and lure our hero to calling. If MP2's stack was deeper, then a push may have been a trick move with a monster, that's entirely possible. But since MP2 had a relatively short stack to begin with, he could've easily called MP1's flop bet and pushed on the turn or river, since our hero would've already been committed to the pot. Hope that makes sense.