Several 2/4 hands for review

L0QTiS · #1 04-12-2005, 12:02 PM

Hand 1

Ultimate Bet 2/4 Omaha/8 (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG+1 raises, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP2 3-bets, MP3 calls, 4 folds, UTG+1 caps, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds.

Turn: (10.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (13.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero folds, MP2 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

Could I have gotten away from this hand sooner?

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Hand 2

Ultimate Bet 2/4 Omaha/8 (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, BB folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, SB calls, MP1 calls.

River: (11 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets $4 (All-In), MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

I felt I was likely behind most of this hand, but believe I had the pot odds to call to the river, but do I have ANY business calling the final bet on the river? I believe this constitutes a potential major leak in my game. Making too many ‘crying calls’ under similar circumstances. I think I really need to ditch the “when the pot is large” holdem mindset. Thoughts?

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Hand 3

Ultimate Bet 2/4 Omaha/8 (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, Dirty calls, 1 fold, MP3 raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls, Hero calls, jc calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (14.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, UTG calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, UTG calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (16.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, UTG folds, Hero folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 19.25 BB

Similar to hand 2 – again, I feel I had pot odds to improve, but recognized I was probably behind to a set by the river. Anyone play this differently?

Also, any general thoughts on playing top two pair? I feel I'm likely value these hands too high and am perhaps not factoring in the fact that I may be drawing dead.

GooperMC · #2 04-12-2005, 01:00 PM

Hand1:
You played it just fine. I suspect that MP2 also had A2 but even so you have great odds (even to quarter).

Hand2:
With a possible flush draw and low draw I would fold on the flop.

Hand3:
Same as hand two except I would fold on the turn.

Overall I play top 2 very slowly; most of the time I am drawing to a boat and will fold if I don't get there. Looking at my PTO database almost every player that I look at is negative showing down two pair. If you are using PTO go to the misc tab and look to see how you are doing showing down two pair (I'll bet you are also negative, I am).

L0QTiS · #3 04-12-2005, 01:50 PM

Obviously I want to improve to a full house, but herein lies the trap and temptation to make the crying call on the river only to loose to a microset or top set (in which case I was drawing dead anyway). I don't have my PTO database in front of me, but I suspect you are correct that I'd be negative for showing down two pair.

That said, I think there's some definite value in two pair hands under the right circumstances. I've been playing on UB quite a bit lately and notice the game can be anywhere from exceedingly loose postflop to very tight, although I can't say I'm the best at adjusting my play to suit the conditions, but I'm working on it.

gergery · #4 04-12-2005, 02:41 PM

Hand 1: Preflop I play it the same. Sometimes I’d raise preflop to isolate if UTG was bad/loose – you dominate many A2 hands. I call the river -- you are getting 14 to 1 on your money and have a weak low which offers you 6:1 on half of the pot. If UTG has the AAxx he is representing then both xx need to be cards 2-6 for him to beat you for low – that is not likely. I might even raise to try and drive out MP and increase the chances of winning half the pot.

Hand 2: Preflop I probably call, particularly in a loose game where others will come in. On the flop, I’d fold. You have 5 outs to a strong hand (3 J’s, 2 Q’s), but must discount that as hitting your card on the turn still means on the river 50% of the time there is a low and 20% of the time there is a flush, and some of the time your straight will be tied and your set of Q’s will lose to a made straight or redraw. I figure ~2.5 effective outs, which is ~17:1, and you’re getting 13 to 1 on your money. Even if you have other outs to win like hitting your K, you won’t know your hand is good and cannot drive the betting.

Hand 3: I’d raise except in the loosest games. Your hand plays very well head to head but gets worse and worse multi-way with no flush potential. On the river, you are getting 8:1 for half the pot. Couldn’t your opponents have A2xx diamonds or AKTx w diamonds? You are most likely beat for high to be sure, but are you beat 88% of the time here?

--Greg

Rosie5 · #5 04-12-2005, 07:13 PM

Regarding hand 3 - Six handed I would probably even throw it away on the flop

if you're up against either a set or 9T you're in bad shape already

There's no way I'd have called down JQ in that situation [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] With that many people in the pot You're definitely up against a flush draw or a set or a straight or a combination of those

gergery · #6 04-12-2005, 08:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
With that many people in the pot You're definitely up against a flush draw or a set or a straight or a combination of those

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree --- you probably are beat for high more than 88% of the time against that many.

You have odds to call and try to hit a 4-outer on both the flop and turn, so i would not fold unless i thought it likely it would get raised

GooperMC · #7 04-13-2005, 12:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You have odds to call and try to hit a 4-outer on both the flop and turn, so i would not fold unless i thought it likely it would get raised

[/ QUOTE ]

Your right again, I had the wrong pot size when I first answered. Geez, I have really been on the ball lately (note the sarcasm).