Betting Help

[mrmookid]

My tournament play has been really lousy lately. I dominated an entire quarter. The games were about 8 people then. We're now up to 12-16 and I've been doing terrible. This past quarter I finished only above the worst of the worst.

To correct this I've been reading, practicing on-line, etc. Nothing seems to work. I get killed in my home games. My starting hand selection is superb and I know how to play position.

I was talking with one of my friends and he said he thinks he figured out what the heck my problem is:

I'm extremely aggressive once I am involved in a pot. If I'm come into a hand betting I tend to bet very heavy. For example, with a rank 1 hand I might go 3-4x the BB, sometimes more, pre-flop. This is early in the tournament mind you (where I frequently get knocked out - if I can make it to the final table I usually get into the money [where top 3 or 4 pays]).

The reason I go in so hard is we have a lot of people who aren't as selective with their starting hands. I want to limit the field. (We're talking KK, AA, AK, etc).

This is where I run into trouble. Something will come up on the flop giving my opponent, who called with crap mind you, either a monster, drawing hand, etc. Since I bet so much pre-flop even walking away from this hand kills my starting stack of T1000. If I feel that I have the hand, I'll make pot-sized bets.

What my friend says I need to do is make smaller bets pre-flop and the remaining rounds. He said that the way I'm playing would work better with more experienced players but that it doesn't work well in OUR games.

My play hasn't changed much from the first quarter - it worked so well then, but now with more people and the others who have been playing with me for several months, it doesn't work at all!

Was someone could give me a few suggestions. I'm sick of doing terrible - especially since I'm the host! On-line I do much better.

(We start T1000, blinds are 10/20 - 15/30 - 25/50 - 50/100 - 75/150 - 100/200 - 200/400 - 300/600 - 400/800 - 500/1000. first 3 rounds are 25 min long, rest are 20 - I am usually knocked out in round 2/3)

[jojobinks]

see if this addresses your issues, it's a thread about playing with weak players.

weak players in home games...

[six_4off]

Sounds Like a Real School of Fish,

So what do you do? Luckily my home game consists of people that don't know the very basics of pot odds. I struggled last year. They were exactly what you were talking about. 10 -20 dollar tourneys. Your blind structure is a little different. we start w/ 1000 in chips, 5/10 blinds escalating every 20 mins. Basically the same thing since your early rounds run every 25 minutes as opposed to my groups 20. The extra cheap round in my game becomes pretty much off set by this. Bottom line, you aren't in any huge hurry.

This year I have recorded over 600 in profit playing 2 to 3 times a week. The games became much bigger, (typically 3 tables as opposed to the 1 that I was losing at.) The opponents became worse. In tourneys like that, your best bet is to stick to the style of play that you describe w/ a couple of modifications.

1.) Play Selective and aggressive. If you just play the cards that you are dealt you have no more of a chance than anyone else does. Be sure to get aggressive in your blinds if you see a steal oppurtunity. Nothing too crazy, if it gets called stop betting and wait it out. The ability to read an opponent also helps in choosing the best oppurtunity to attempt this kinda play. Other than that wait it out like you should. It kinda sounds to me like you are getting too aggressive in these early phases. The blinds aren't big enough to be playing a bunch of pots. Typically my philosophy has been in these early rounds, Bet if you know that your good. Some players misinterpret that as, only play when you have the nuts. Thats not it, and maybe this will become clearer when your reading skills become a little better. You never see me in a big showdown early unless I am holding a monster.


2.)Analyze the Fish: It's impossible to play all fish the same way collectivly. Just like real fish, there are several species. Take note, pay attention to what makes these players bad and adjust. If one of them is a call station make bets bigger when you know that you are good, and be prepared to throw away a/k when it doesn't hit. If the players are re raising w/ q/k because its soooooooted and they get it showndown a couple times, take a mental note of that. Now its simple what to do when that happens when you are holding kk. ALL IN! Just be sure that you aren's playing all of these bad players the same way.Teir lack of knowledge is frustrating on a lot of pots that they never shoulda been in, but it is what you want at a poker table.

3.) Your play should become looser and looser as the blinds go up. This is where there should be some deviation from ABC poker. I will describe a hand that made a lot of people angry, and made me chip leader. I was BB. A friend who I play w/ since forever raises to double the blinds on the button. SB calls, I believe sensing the steal because, Dealer, (D), had been caught stealing in this position earlier in the night. I was being blinded off which wasn't a problem early, but now we were getting into some bigger blinds and bigger pots. I look down at J,6 off. Early in the tourney I lay down there. But at this point you have to realizethat you are getting 5 to 1 on your call. I call it was time to gamble. Flop came out J high. There was a bet from SB about 4/5 of the pot. I sense a steal from him, making sure that D has no oppurtunity to bluff again, and assuming that I was only calling because of my discount. I gave it the insta all in just about doubling what he had put in. D folds, SB sighs and calls cause of pot odds. Shows q/k off which doesn't pair, and I took a biggun. These situations in early phases are simple folds. When chips become an issue, you gotta be willing to gamble w/in reason. By calling that bet I had about 20 percent of my chips.but the implied odds on top of the fact that I was about 4 to 1 dogged but gettin 5 to 1 on my call. Well I was berated for the play by the idiot for the next 2 hands when he got knocked out. Even after explaining to him my exact reasons for calling, he berated me. This is why I like fish. No math. It is just so easy in this game to say, "I was outdrawn" and keep on playing. A fish never thinks that they are wrong. And its your job prove that they are. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

That is the basics of my Tourney Strategy. Furthermore I think that you would do much better in a cash game. Try getting that started over at your home game. There is just so much that can go wrong in tourneys. A bad beat in a cash game sucks, but you can rebound like its nothing. In a tourney, its different. 1 bad beat and a night of solid poker play has gone to $h!t. Try a cheap Pot Limit cash game when players start dropping out of the tourney. Maybe .25 and .50 blinds and set a limit of$10 if you wanna keep it friendly. Thats how the cash games were started at my home game and now they are more favored than the tourneys. NEwhere from 20 to 50 dollar buy ins are average, and I do a lot better there than at the tourneys.

Anyway I really enjoyed posting this one, Let me know if there are any other questions, If anything is unclear holler back and I'll do the same.

Best of Luck and Enjoy Your Fish and Chips!

Six to the Fizour

[SamIAm]

[ QUOTE ]
My starting hand selection is superb

[/ QUOTE ]What does this mean? Does it mean "tight"? Does it mean "very correct"? These aren't always the same thing.

[ QUOTE ]
with a rank 1 hand I might go 3-4x the BB, sometimes more, pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]I think varying your preflop bet based on your hole cards is awful. You can adjust based on the number of players who have called, or your position, but not on information that your opponents CAN'T see.

[ QUOTE ]
my friend says make smaller bets pre-flop and the remaining rounds.

[/ QUOTE ]I think 3-4xBB preflop is a good standard raise. No need to lower it. I think pot-sized bets are crazy, though. I think 1/2-2/3 are more in order, but it's a hard line to draw.

The moral seems to be: You're playing with bad players. They make the game higher EV but higher variance, and it seems you've been running bad. Since you're clearly not playing with these guys for the poker strategy discussions, try to have fun and enjoy the game. Play correct poker and wait for the long term.
-Sam

[KungFuSandwich]

[ QUOTE ]
My starting hand selection is superb


[/ QUOTE ]
The fact that you said this makes me doubt the truthfulness of this statement.

If they are as weak as you say, it shouldnt be that hard. Fold when you dont have a hand, raise when you have TPTK or better. Dont slowplay. Sounds like you have trouble folding AK (or other hands you raise preflop) when it doesnt hit. Theres some truth in the cliche dont chase good money with bad money.

If youve only been playing a year, you probably think you know everything. The more objectively you can view you play, the quicker youll be able to improve. I suggest reading every post ever made by Ed Miller.