T4s and J7s...lets get theoretical

[oreogod]

Two theoretical hands. In one u hold J7s, the other T4s. Game is ten handed. You are in the small blind (1/2 blind structure) you get 2 limpers, MP2 raises, MP3 calls, Button calls, etc. (there will be 7 players seeing the flop) -- do u call the raise from the small blind with these hands?

The EV for both hands over the long run are -EV (T4s has an -EV of -0.5, J7s of -0.07). There is an argument in small stakes that seems to be going no where, so being a theortical question I thought I'd post here (Heroes and Villians thread). See what u folks think.

[EightStuda]

I'd dip my stick in there and wiggle it around a little for 7 way action. Never know what you might taste...

-Dimitri

[TStoneMBD]

youre getting 8.3:1. assuming you can outplay everyone postflop, this is all you need to flop a flush draw because you will play it properly for implied odds. your hand also has far more equity than that for 2pair/set value. J7 has far more value to me than T4. as far as im concerned, J7 is an easy call and T4 is a little bit more debatable, but fairly easy as well.

from twodimes.net:

scenario #1, only 1 card is dominated:

Holdem Hi: 501942 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac 7c 44583 8.88 426422 84.95 30937 6.16 0.119
8s 8d 89384 17.81 404336 80.55 8222 1.64 0.186
Qc Th 74065 14.76 422588 84.19 5289 1.05 0.152
3d Kh 36829 7.34 459715 91.59 5398 1.08 0.078
8c Ah 33246 6.62 436400 86.94 32296 6.43 0.098
Kc Qd 93778 18.68 398076 79.31 10088 2.01 0.196
Jh 7h 82008 16.34 413071 82.29 6863 1.37 0.170


scenario 2, you are double dominated:

Holdem Hi: 501942 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac 7c 44961 8.96 424479 84.57 32502 6.48 0.122
8s 8d 90233 17.98 402718 80.23 8991 1.79 0.188
Qc Th 123373 24.58 377970 75.30 599 0.12 0.246
3d Kh 38596 7.69 454138 90.48 9208 1.83 0.086
8c Ah 35645 7.10 431752 86.02 34545 6.88 0.105
Kc Jd 81527 16.24 406296 80.94 14119 2.81 0.176
Jh 7h 33193 6.61 456890 91.02 11859 2.36 0.078


scenario 3, youre only 1 dominated but up against higher hearts:

Ac 7c 54652 10.89 416533 82.98 30757 6.13 0.139
8s 8d 90453 18.02 403281 80.34 8208 1.64 0.188
Qh Th 86131 17.16 410526 81.79 5285 1.05 0.176
3d Kh 36754 7.32 460058 91.66 5130 1.02 0.078
8c Ah 32204 6.42 437668 87.19 32070 6.39 0.096
Kc Qd 92896 18.51 399226 79.54 9820 1.96 0.194
Jh 7h 61257 12.20 433790 86.42 6895 1.37 0.128


it appears that you are actually losing equity by not playing your hand preflop. you are a solid postflop player with a fairly strong multiway hand. you should be receiving implied odds, not reverse implied odds more often than not.

[xxxxx]

If you can outplay everyone postflop from the worst position is a pretty big assumption. You hold T4s and flop KT3 rainbow one of your suit. Do you bet? I can't see you winning unimproved but you have 5 outs in a big pot.

[TStoneMBD]

if you dont know how to play T4s on a KT3r board, then you shouldnt coldcall with T4s because its apparent that youre not good enough to play it correctly postflop.

dont mean to be condescending.

[k_squared]

so how do you play it in that situation? The point is that it is a complicated situation that leaves you in a pretty lose-lose kind of way (unless you have great control over your opponents). I know that how I would play that hand is very dependent upon the opponents, but you seem to think it is an easy hand to play... So, what would you do? There is the tension of a good sized pot which it is a huge mistake to lose if you are getting the right odds, or ahead, and the fact that your hand currently just isn't that good.

The point is to discuss what you would do, not to say 'if you don't know don't do it'...

I would typically bet into a weak field or try to check raise if there are aggressive players in the back. It is a small mistake to lose a bet here or there, but a huge mistake to lose a large pot...

-k_squared

[xxxxx]

[ QUOTE ]
if you dont know how to play T4s on a KT3r board, then you shouldnt coldcall with T4s because its apparent that youre not good enough to play it correctly postflop.

dont mean to be condescending.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I don't cold call a raise with T4s.

[TStoneMBD]

i didnt think it was appropriate to hijack this thread with a complex analysis of how to play T4s on a KT3r board, as that is not the topic at hand but merely a tangent. however, dont get me wrong, i am willing to discuss poker any time.

however, since you insist;

you shouldnt be leading into a 6 player, raised pot field with middle pair no kicker. instead you should be willing to check-call if its not likely to get raised behind you, and you are getting ample odds to chase to your tainted 5 outter.

if the pfr came from LP, you can check to him and if he bets you can raise/call or simply fold, depending upon your reads. you dont have to feel obligated to get involved with this hand if it looks like you will be put into a -ev situation. for instance, if you check to the pfr and he bets, and you just call, it may be raised behind you killing your odds.

i cant tell you exactly how to play a situation through theoretical discussion, without player reads. all that i can tell you is that when situations like this arise in play, i feel that i am well equipped to handle them appropriately.

[oreogod]

by all means, I enjoy the discussion on hand. Hijack away. Lol.

[comic2b]

I think you can play both of these. You are just limping in for an extra bet. I want to have a pretty good read that it's not going to be reraised behind me.

I think you are looking to hit the flop hard. Two pair set or flush draw. Straight with J7. If not I muck. I think playing on with a king on board is suicide. I know how these people think. If I king comes on the flop I'm good because kings are high and nothing will make me lay it down.

Maybe I don't understand holdem.