As Villain Puts It An "Astronomical" Hand

kamjah · #1 04-06-2005, 09:30 PM

Both villains aren't anything special, just two regular players making a few fishy moves and staying even stacked. For some reason i had a lot of trouble putting either of them on a flopped set. Aside from this being an incredibly rare and strange hand. Hows my play?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

MP ($39.85)
Button ($35.55)
Hero ($43.25)
BB ($48)
UTG ($19.5)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, MP calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50, Hero (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($2.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players) Hero Bets $2.4, BB Raises to $6, Button Raises to $15, Hero is All-In $40.35, BB is All-In $41.5, Button is All-In $24.5

Turn: ($130.1) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)

River: ($130.1) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)

Final Pot: $130.1

Results in white below: 
BB has Ad 3s (two pair, aces and threes).
UTG doesn't show.
MP has Ac 3c (two pair, aces and threes).
Button doesn't show.
Hero has Ah Th (two pair, aces and tens).
Outcome: Hero wins $125.35. BB wins $4.75 from the sidepot

TheWorstPlayer · #2 04-07-2005, 12:38 AM

It's pretty hard to get away from top two at these stakes against 'fishy' opponents, so I don't hate your play here. But at higher stakes, or more aptly put "against better opponents", you are giving away money here.

Spladle Master · #3 04-07-2005, 02:05 AM

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It's pretty hard to get away from top two at these stakes against 'fishy' opponents, so I don't hate your play here. But at higher stakes, or more aptly put "against better opponents", you are giving away money here.

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What he said.

However, I'm never laying down your hand on this board at these stakes, for what it's worth.

soah · #4 04-07-2005, 02:15 AM

At exactly what stakes do you decide to fold top two pair five-handed on a very safe board with only 80bb?

TheWorstPlayer · #5 04-07-2005, 02:50 AM

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At exactly what stakes do you decide to fold top two pair five-handed on a very safe board with only 80bb?

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The action has gone:
Bet pot, raise, re-raise

and is now back to you. You have top two and the top card is an ace. What hands do you exactly put good, straightforward opponents on? If the opponents aren't donkeys, but aren't aggressive/tricky either, I think there is a decent chance I am laying that down, although you are definitely right that short stacked that chance is probably slim.

ghostface · #6 04-07-2005, 02:54 AM

I think the worst hand you could be up against playing at higher stakes here is AT. Then it would be 33 TT and AA. Those are the only hands villains would have a throw around that kind of action. Since you dont lose to only one of them I dont see how you could stay in.

Edit: stack sizes may warrant a call i guess.

BobboFitos · #7 04-07-2005, 03:06 AM

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I think the worst hand you could be up against playing at higher stakes here is AT. Then it would be 33 TT and AA. Those are the only hands villains would have a throw around that kind of action. Since you dont lose to only one of them I dont see how you could stay in.

Edit: stack sizes may warrant a call i guess.

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or any flush + straight draw. or just flush draw. or bluff. or A3.

TheWorstPlayer · #8 04-07-2005, 03:25 AM

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or any flush + straight draw. or just flush draw. or bluff. or A3.

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Please tell me the last time that you, or anyone else that you know of, has bluffed on the flop after a pot bet and then a raise. Please tell me the last time that you, or anyone else that you know of, has re-raised a pot bet and a raise with just a flush draw. A3 is possible, but statistically unlikely since you have an ace in your hand. T3 is also an unlikely hand to be in with. And what is the first guy raising with if the re-raiser has A3? A3 also? I think you see a set here at least 50% of the time the action goes like this against good, non-tricky players at meaningful stakes.

BobboFitos · #9 04-07-2005, 03:31 AM

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or any flush + straight draw. or just flush draw. or bluff. or A3.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please tell me the last time that you, or anyone else that you know of, has bluffed on the flop after a pot bet and then a raise. Please tell me the last time that you, or anyone else that you know of, has re-raised a pot bet and a raise with just a flush draw. A3 is possible, but statistically unlikely since you have an ace in your hand. T3 is also an unlikely hand to be in with. And what is the first guy raising with if the re-raiser has A3? A3 also? I think you see a set here at least 50% of the time the action goes like this against good, non-tricky players at meaningful stakes.

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TWP when the action is back to hero it has gone min raise then slightly less than pot raise. It's possible that the minraise is a weak draw or a weak ace, as well as the other hands.

the pot raise could be a strong(er) draw, a strong ace, or any hand which beats you (set)

when they both call, well, i wouldn't be too happy, but when hero makes a decision, I like it.

soah · #10 04-07-2005, 04:22 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
At exactly what stakes do you decide to fold top two pair five-handed on a very safe board with only 80bb?

[/ QUOTE ]
The action has gone:
Bet pot, raise, re-raise

and is now back to you. You have top two and the top card is an ace. What hands do you exactly put good, straightforward opponents on? If the opponents aren't donkeys, but aren't aggressive/tricky either, I think there is a decent chance I am laying that down, although you are definitely right that short stacked that chance is probably slim.

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Good shorthanded players are not straightforward. But they ARE "aggressive/tricky". If anything, you've made a good argument for folding it at lower stakes against bad/straightforward players but not at higher stakes against stronger/trickier/aggressive players.