KK = Kold Kall

PotatoStew · #1 04-04-2005, 10:42 PM

Obviously (?) I would usually raise, 3-bet or cap with KK preflop. However, in this case, UTG -- the preflop raiser -- has only $11 in front of him at the begining of the hand. I figure if I 3 bet him, there's a good chance I get it heads up, but I'd like a little more than 3 BB for my KK, so I take a chance here and simply cold call, hoping I can get at least one other person along for the ride. Of course, there's a greater chance of getting sucked out on, but KK is a good holding, so I think it's worth the risk. Agree? Disagree? Comments on other streets?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 3 folds, Hero calls, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero caps, BB calls, UTG calls $1 (All-In).

Turn: (9 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (11 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

CallMeIshmael · #2 04-04-2005, 10:51 PM

I like the way you thought about how the stacks would affect future play.

I would like it a lot more, however, if it were AA.

KK is far more vulerable than AA.

I would say leave the fancy stuff for when you cant face an overcard.

Also, you have to be able to not tilt if you let he BB (or a player behind you) in cheaply and they beat you. If you cant do this, then NEVER make this play.

Also, why do you think:

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but I'd like a little more than 3 BB for my KK

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KK has an EV of less than 3 BB.

If instead of playing poker, I was just given 3BB everytime I was dealt KK, I would have a higher winrate than I have now.

PotatoStew · #3 04-04-2005, 11:49 PM

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KK is far more vulerable than AA.

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I suppose so... I certainly wouldn't try this w/ QQ. KK seems strong enough, but I'd probably feel differently about it if an Ace had showed up on the flop.

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Also, you have to be able to not tilt if you let he BB (or a player behind you) in cheaply and they beat you. If you cant do this, then NEVER make this play.

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Certainly... when I did it, I specifically told myself, "now you can't get mad if you get drawn out on."

[ QUOTE ]
KK has an EV of less than 3 BB.

If instead of playing poker, I was just given 3BB everytime I was dealt KK, I would have a higher winrate than I have now.

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Hm... I definitely hadn't thought of it that way. Looking at PokerTracker though, you're right of course.

Still, isn't the idea to get the most money you can whenever you win a pot? If you only looked at it in terms of average BB per hand, I don't think you could *ever* make a case for slowplaying a hand or value betting.

masonx · #4 04-04-2005, 11:59 PM

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KK has an EV of less than 3 BB.

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werd, but you cant take 3BB everytime so i dont mind his thought process here. but i still 3 bet it. you might still get some total donk to call yah

TripleH68 · #5 04-05-2005, 12:01 AM

If you 3-bet to "isolate" the short-stacked player, other players may not give as much respect to your reraise anyway. I say build that pot preflop. Beware the BB getting in with 43s for one bet.

CallMeIshmael · #6 04-05-2005, 12:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Still, isn't the idea to get the most money you can whenever you win a pot? If you only looked at it in terms of average BB per hand, I don't think you could *ever* make a case for slowplaying a hand or value betting.

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nah... I mean, its not like I was saying "once you get 3BB in the pot with KK.. stop, because you should be happy"

A while ago someone said he was upset that he only picked up the blinds with AJo... and I told him he should be happy. Most hands arent worth the blinds.

This was just a similar thought. I was just saying that you *should* be happy winning 3BB with KK, as it is better than average.

Also, Part of the EV of KK in your database comes from the fact that you make value bets.

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In poker, profit = edge * volume.

So, of course you want more volume when you have an edge (as you've got here).

I dont make that call (I raise), but I'm also not willing to say that it was a mistake. It might have been +EV, because you certainly increased your average volume from the equation above.

A downside that I thought about later was, that it is generally harder to play against a calling hand than a raising hand with AA/KK, because their range is less well defined (ie. if you get calls behind you).

Also, FWIW, you do sometimes lose this pot when you get it heads up.. you probably have about 75% equity against UTG, so, even if you got it heads up, your EV is about 1.9BB

sfer · #7 04-05-2005, 12:20 AM

I'll do the same, more often with AA, more often when I'm closer to the button for fairly obvious reasons.

KDawgCometh · #8 04-05-2005, 01:15 AM

I don't mind the play at all. It looks like the guy who kept raising you has an Ace , but like a poster said it'd be bad to let the BB in with 43s for one bet, but I do like the thought process behind the hand

miajag81 · #9 04-05-2005, 02:30 AM

Well played.