justification for pfr?

[mhardy]

Hi -

I think I understand that at little limits pfr is to make mistaken calls pay the most possible. At party $0.50/1 where there's little hesitation to coldcall or play lousy cards this seems self-evident.

But at $1/2 I'm wondering how much value there is in blindly raising pf (opening round only). Since I've seen that party $1/2 is tighter, far less coldcalling, folding to a raise and mostly one caller at the river, wouldn't you get better value for your money if you did NOT raise the best pf hands (AA, KK, AKs)?

If you have AA and raise, maybe one will coldcall and maybe a blind will stay (for example). So your two bets got you four. If, however, you called with AA instead, marginal hands or fraidy cats that wouldn't call two would definitely call one. Even if only one additional bettor stays (besides the two that coldcalled in the raise scenario) because you didn't raise, your one bet got you three. So instead of putting half the money in the pot you've only put in 1/3 by not raising.

So this reasonable assumption (one addt'l caller; likely you'd have even more) indicates that investment-wise it might be better to not raise your best pf hands.

So what am I missing, if my aim is to maximize my investment? And yes, there are all sorts of scenarios it can be correctly argued that raising is the right play but I'm specifically talking about this frequent scenario I mention specifically.

[jaxUp]

This post indicates that you lack an understanding of basic poker concepts. It will be explained to you as to why you need to be raising these hands preflop. I have to go right now, but if nobody sets you straight, I'll do it when I get back (though I expect I'll just be adding a tag of approval to Grunch or Aaron, or spidey, shill...a bunch more)

[Niediam]

But those who are making the coldcalls are going to almost always be making an unprofitable call but those who are only calling one bet will often be profiting by their call...

A quick example:

You raise UTG with AA and everybody folds to the button who calls with QJs. The caller is clearly making an unprofitable call.

You call UTG with AA. A couple people in MP limp with hands such as KQ and A9 which will probably lose money in this situation. Then the CO calls with 55 and the button calls with that same QJs - calls which now probably make the callers money.

[Ringo_Mojo]

The simple answer is... Aces are strongest in a heads-up or three-way pot.
The more people in the pot with marginal hands the more chances that your aces will not hold up if they don't improve.

If I recall correctly against a field of 9 opponents AA wins about 30% of the time, heads up it wins about 80%.

[Zany]

"But those who are making the coldcalls are going to almost always be making an unprofitable call but those who are only calling one bet will often be profiting by their call...

A quick example:

You raise UTG with AA and everybody folds to the button who calls with QJs. The caller is clearly making an unprofitable call.

You call UTG with AA. A couple people in MP limp with hands such as KQ and A9 which will probably lose money in this situation. Then the CO calls with 55 and the button calls with that same QJs - calls which now probably make the callers money. "

Only the 55 hand would not loose money preflop in this scenario. And he would make more money preflop from the 5 limpers than he would if the big blind called his rais. Also he would have more people after the flop that can donate money. The only disadvantage with the limp situation as opposed to the rais situation is that it's harder for the aces to know if his hand is dead.

I also don't think that this shows how little he understands about poker but rather that he thinks as opposed to following some books advice.

I'm mearly a begginer so I would like to here from more experienced players why the situation with the big blind calling is better than the 5 limpers situation.

[jaxUp]

I will (hopefully) be posting a detailed response to this late tonight, or sometime tomorrow. I will be going through pros and cons for the n00bs, and also for myself...never hurts to brush up. In the meantime, please trust me, and raise those monsters preflop.

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
The simple answer is... Aces are strongest in a heads-up or three-way pot.
The more people in the pot with marginal hands the more chances that your aces will not hold up if they don't improve.

If I recall correctly against a field of 9 opponents AA wins about 30% of the time, heads up it wins about 80%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aces is strong in any pot. Very few flops are very scary for Aces, I love them when 4-5 people cold call my raise with em.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]

Aces is strong in any pot. Very few flops are very scary for Aces, I love them when 4-5 people cold call my raise with em.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes!

There is a common misconcpetion about aces made by many newer players: "they don't play as well multiway." They win more often against one or two opponents. They win more money the more people are in the pot. Ideal situation for AA: 10 players see the flop, capped preflop.

You want to win money, not pots.

[ArturiusX]

Just a little side note: KJo, ATo are the types of hands you raise because they get more marginal the more multi-way they are. They're easily dominated, and top pair is sometimes a shakey way to win a pot, the more people in the pot, the less likely top pair will hold up.

Aces, Kings, Queens; they're powerful hands multiway, and don't forget the same set value that 33s and 44s have. Just remember the lower your pocket pairs, the scarier the boards can get, thus the more you have to release. Like Ed Miller once said, if you never folded aces you'd never big making that much of a mistake.

[Shillx]

If you have AA and raise, maybe one will coldcall and maybe a blind will stay (for example).

You need to do one of two things if this is going on at your table(s).

A) Change tables (easiest thing to do and probably the most +EV)

B) Open up your game a lot more and give them a large dose of PFR's and flop bets no matter if you hit or miss the flop. This is tougher to do and you have to know when people finally figure out what you are doing. At that point you start going back to your normal strategy and hopefully you will get 5 coldcallers when you raise AA UTG. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Brad