I went for the check-raise and sort of got it...

elitegimp · #1 04-02-2005, 01:51 PM

Does this look okay?

My thoughts -- I was against check-raising the flop because I had J high with a 9 kicker... Plus I figured if I hit one of my 6-8 outs, I was in a great position to check-raise MP1 (depending on the action if the third club fell). Anyway, as you can see I nearly whiffed because MP1 checked (luckily, CO came to my rescue).

Is this a standard line, or is it too fancy?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Button calls, Hero raises

UncleSalty · #2 04-02-2005, 02:07 PM

I would check/raise the flop here once you know most of the field is calling. You have a pretty big equity edge against 5 players and you can expect them to call one more after they've called. The flush could certainly be out, but that doesn't mean you don't own a big piece of this pot.

The rest of the hand looks good. I hope you didn't run into a club on the river.

Edit: Actually, you need to bet this turn 100% of the time. Especially after you've check/raised the flop as I recommend.

CourtJester · #3 04-02-2005, 02:21 PM

At worst you have 6 outs and even with 7, a bet on the flop would have been appropriate. But since you checked I think that a flop CR would have been ok as the bet came from your left and you really dont want anyone to leave with a pretty decent draw. Lead out the turn because anyone with a flush draw has odds to call your CR anyways.

BriPlay · #4 04-02-2005, 05:05 PM

thanks for the post.
i'd prob have bet the flop rather than check..since there's no gaurantee that anyone's gonna bet this kinda ragedy flop (if there was a raise preflop thats different IMO). but since you cheked and got bet into..check raise flop seems like a good way to build the pot.
turn:in either scenario you bet out on turn. you might even get raised by 2 pr since your str8 is well disguised
Brian

FishHooks · #5 04-02-2005, 06:00 PM

yea no way you try to check raise this flop, always have someone in mind who you are trying to check raise, just bet at this flop.

Isura · #6 04-02-2005, 06:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
yea no way you try to check raise this flop, always have someone in mind who you are trying to check raise, just bet at this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does betting the flop accomplish?

Malachii · #7 04-02-2005, 06:54 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the bet for value? He's got a strong draw. It's about break even if two players call, and +EV if more than two call because he's probably got around 30-35% equity of the pot.

Given that a flush draw isn't going anywhere, would simply calling the turn and going for overcalls be an option? Simply betting out would be best of course, but I don't really like the checkraise. For example, if the player immediately before you bet, would it be correct to raise or simply call and go for the overcalls?

Isura · #8 04-03-2005, 12:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the bet for value? He's got a strong draw. It's about break even if two players call, and +EV if more than two call because he's probably got around 30-35% equity of the pot.

Given that a flush draw isn't going anywhere, would simply calling the turn and going for overcalls be an option? Simply betting out would be best of course, but I don't really like the checkraise. For example, if the player immediately before you bet, would it be correct to raise or simply call and go for the overcalls?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll answer this question since the rest has been discussed.
[ QUOTE ]
Given that a flush draw isn't going anywhere, would simply calling the turn and going for overcalls be an option?

[/ QUOTE ]

Overcalls are not a good idea on the turn for several reasons. For one, as you correctly noted, a flush is NOT going anywhere. This means that a flush draw will always pay 2 or more bets to see the river, so get his money now while you have the best hand. You lose a lot of value by only getting 1 BB from flush draws here in the long run. You also want to extract the maximum from made hands here. Loose players aren't letting go of top pair here. If someone has a flush draw and something like like bottom pair, they'll still proably make a crying call on the river since the pot will be even bigger. Finally, straights are hidden hands , so you can expect to get action on the river, even after raising the turn if someone hits two pair or a set (with no flush).

UncleSalty · #9 04-02-2005, 06:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yea no way you try to check raise this flop, always have someone in mind who you are trying to check raise, just bet at this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does betting the flop accomplish?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree w/ Isura. Betting this flop is terrible, and risks blowing away our equity edge for the OESD. Fishooks' logic is applicable to having a vulnerable hand and hoping that a PF aggressor will bet to your right so you can face the field with two cold. In this case, the c/r is used to pad the pot when our equity advantage is greatest. "No way I'm betting this flop".

-Salty

fluxrad · #10 04-02-2005, 07:17 PM

I don't understand that.

Let's assume someone in late position bets it and you c/r. You're still facing the field w/ two cold and if they don't have appropriate odds they should fold. Now, if you don't get at least two cold calls doesn't this play basically cost you money?