Am I understanding this correctly?

[Ginogino]

You play over an extended period of time and have, say a winning rate of 2 big bets per hour. But what's really happening is more complex. You are making misplays that cost you 3 bb/hr, while at the same time the other players at the table are making even more mistakes than you, and you benefit to the rate of 5 bb/hr. I'm oversimplifying the effect of good play here, but you see what I mean, I hope.

This explains the effect of a "tough table" on players who are not quite so good -- the "not quite so good's" keep misplaying (and losing 3 bb/hr or whatever), while the rest of the table doesn't give anything back. Or am I misunderstanding what is going on in most games? Thanks,
Gino

If you are making mistakes that are costing you 3 BB's per hour it is quite unlikely that you are winning 2 BB's per hour. Rather you are likely losing at least 2 BB's per hour. I suppose under the perfect circumstances you could play that poorly and also win the 2 BB's per hour you mentioned. This would require virtually ALL the other players in the game to be making more mistakes than you. Upon further reflection a very loose passive game might fall in this category but it would be rare for this games complexion to remain the same over an extended period of time.

You may be considering plays that end up being incorrect by virtue of the end result. This is not the same as making an incorrect play. A good example of this is calling a river bet when all you can beat is a bluff. As long as your estimate of how often he "might" bluff in this situation was correct and you had the correct pot odds to call compared to your percentage estimate you made the correct play yet lost an extra BB.

Hope this helps,

Jimbo

[AceHigh]

I'm not sure if this is what you are talking about, but everybody makes "mistakes" in poker. Calling or betting when behind and folding when ahead. So if you find a game where you opponents make less mistakes than you, you will be a loser in a long run.

On another tangent, if you are used to playing in loose games, your play would loosen up to take advantage of the loose play of others. A person play "correctly" would make less than a player who adjusts for the looseness of the other players and opens up his game.

Hope that answers your question.

[Ginogino]

Jimbo:
My post wasn't the result of worries about my own game (not that I'm not always thinking about my game), but rather it came out of observing a fairly bad low limit game. Truly it appeared that between them the players were averaging multiple mistakes (and a lot of them were important mistakes) per hand! Some portion of this mis-bet money went to pay the rake, but the rest of it had to go somewhere else. When I play in a game like this, I win overall, but I don't win enough to account for what I'd think would be "my share" of the other players' mistakes. Maybe I'm not altering my game enough to reflect the mistakes being made by other players (this is the theory I favor, and I'm looking to find a better strategy for games against mostly clueless opponents). In any case, thanks for the reply,

Gino

[Ginogino]

AceHigh:
I've been thinking in the kind of terms you suggest. I do fairly well in loose games where my opponents appear to be making mistakes regularly, but I think my failure to do better is caused by my not making sufficient adjustment to their play. I think sometimes that the term "loose", even if you limit it to "loose passive preflop", is too generic. Open-limping preflop with too many bad hands isn't quite the same as open-limping AA (this, typically, from a friendly lady who explains that she never seems to win with AA, so she never raises). You really do need to consider the way each individual opponent plays, but when you're playing against strangers you learn about their play a little bit at a time. In any case, thanks for the reply,

Gino

Hi Gino,

Sorry about my misunderstanding your first question. When you implied an extended period of time I assumed you meant yourself. Personally I do not believe you could observe someone else playing for a period long enough to make the supposition you initially outlined.

Having said that it is likely that the rake is taking more of the profit than you are estimating. Certainly over the term of one session nothing you observed has much real value. If one player only made 10 BB's over a 5 hour session the reason he won this amount and not more or less cannot be easily (if at all) quantified. Also the fact that you do not win your "share" is not relevant by measuring a few sessions.

As for finding that better strategy HPFAP pages 151 through 180 address this very subject. It has made playing in loose games more profitable for me (at least more tolerable!) [img]/forums/images/icons/blush.gif[/img]

Best of luck,

Jimbo