Help Me Understand Value Bet vs Semi-Bluff

Kellon · #1 03-31-2005, 03:10 PM

Can someone please explain the difference between these two concepts, if there is an actual difference? As I read about them and read various definitions of them, they both seem to be a situation of betting, or raising, when you don't currently have the best hand but have sufficient outs to have a fair chance to improve to the best hand, and thus have the appropriate odds to make the bet profitable in the long run. If there is a significant distinction between the two concepts, I'm missing it. TIA, Kellon

Pov · #2 03-31-2005, 04:07 PM

They are completely different concepts.

A semi-bluff is a bet or raise with a hand that doesn't figure to be best at the moment but has a reasonable chance of becoming the best hand by the river. Your bet or raise is +EV if there is a reasonable chance your opponent will fold thinking you already have him beat. When performed on the flop this play can also sometimes be a "free card" play in which you gain value by seeing the river without a turn bet because your flop bet froze the other player. However, the free card play is not necessarily a semi-bluff. If there is no chance (or very little chance) your opponent is going to fold you are not semi-bluffing correctly.

A value bet is a bet that derives its value from being best and having someone with a weaker hand call or having a pot equity edge, i.e. being the best hand for the situation. If you have top pair, top kicker and think your opponent will call you with a worse hand then you are making a value bet. You do not want your opponent to fold when you value bet (unless they have a better hand of course - but if they do then you actually made a bad value bet and a good bluff [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]).

I'm going to guess where you got confused was someone discussing making a value bet or value raise with a flush draw on the flop against many opponents. This play may seem like a semi-bluff but it is far from it. Say I have the A5s from late position and there are 4 players in front of me and the flop comes up giving me a flush draw. If the first player bets and the next three call I should probably raise. Note that none of the players are likely to fold but I also am certain I do not hold the *currently* best hand. However, I do know that my flush will come in roughly 1/3 of the time and I am only putting in 1/5 of the money. This pot equity edge means I am actually getting value out of every dollar that goes into the pot since I stand to earn back more than I am putting in. That makes this play a value raise. Note that I do *not* want anyone to fold. It also has the great potential to be a free card play on the turn if it is checked to me and I have not yet made my flush.

edit: clarity

playersare · #3 03-31-2005, 04:12 PM

I think a value bet is a made hand which is not necessarily the nuts but may likely be the best hand against weaker opponents on showdown. good tactic against bad players who stay in with anything like ace high or low pair.

A semi-bluff is a hand which is not yet made but a) has sufficient outs to redraw for a win and/or b) a strong likelihood to cause opponents to fold even without you actually making the hand. strong overcards, open ended straight and flush draws. good tactic against good players who can release marginal hands with few outs vs. the hand you are portraying.

Derek in NYC · #4 03-31-2005, 05:54 PM

Value bet = you think you have the best hand and want money in the pot.

Semi-bluff = you dont think you have the best hand, but you think you can draw to the best hand AND you think there is some chance of winning the pot on the spot. The combined value of both the draw and the chance of winning on a bluff, make it a positive EV move. Both halves are essential to making the move +EV.

trying2learn · #5 04-01-2005, 10:25 PM

a better question is what is a value call? (note...only do this with the nuts ala bill fillmaff.)

prkchpcwby · #6 04-02-2005, 03:41 AM

a semibluff is made before the river, mostly on teh flop, when the odds of catching a draw are much higher than they would be on fourth street. While a value bet is made on the river to try to take down the pot or to find out where your hand is in relation to the other players'. It is designed to lose minimal chips if teh opponent comesover the top of you.

Kellon · #7 04-02-2005, 08:20 PM

I just got a chance to check in and read through the posts over the last few days. I'm "glad" to see (in truth, I'm sorry to see) that, for the most part, I'm not the only one who doesn't have a very clear idea what these two concepts really mean.

M.B.E. · #8 04-03-2005, 01:49 AM

The response given by Pov is correct.

Other responses in this thread are either inaccurate or incomplete in some manner.

The basic idea behind a value bet/raise is that you want your opponent(s) to at least call. That's not a precise definition, just the general idea.

The basic idea behind a semi-bluff bet/raise is that you want your opponent(s) to fold, but if they don't then you still have outs to beat them.

Kellon · #9 04-03-2005, 10:41 AM

Thanks, M.B.E. I was thinking along the same lines about Pov's post, and the others. Better yet, you added the final touch in helping me understand the two concepts.

Kurn, son of Mogh · #10 04-03-2005, 04:03 PM

A semi-bluff is a bet with more cards to come in which you hope your opponent(s) fold, but you have a reasonable chance of improving to the best hand if they do not.

A value bet is a bet you make hoping to be called because you expect to have the best hand the majority of the times you are called.

A vale bet can be made with no cards to come, a semi-bluff cannot.