Collusion - how do you spot it?

[sameoldsht]

I've been paying in a casino where there seems to be the same couple (guy and gal) playing every night for the last week or so. They are loudmouths, but not overly offensive or anything. But their play is a bit odd and I've suspected collusion for a few days.

Here's a great example from tonight. I already suspected collusion here and they seem to "like" me...talking to me a lot, calling me by name, etc., etc. Frankly I think these people are kinda jerks and I try to keep the conversation to a minimum with them, but whatever...back to the collusion.

I'm in MP. Suspect 1 is UTG and Suspect 2 is one seat to my left.

Preflop - Suspect 1 limps, folded to me, I limp, Suspect 2 limps and one limper in LP, both blinds call.

Flop - I hit top 2 pair. Suspect 1 bets and I just call. Suspect 2 raises, LP calls and blinds fold. Suspect 1 calls the raise, so do I.

Turn - gives me a full house (woo hoo!) and there's 3 to a flush on the board. Suspect 1 bets, I just call again. Suspect 2 raises. LP folds. Suspect 1 calls, I re-raise. Suspect 2 and suspect one think for a while and both call.

River...blank. Suspect 1 checks, I bet, Suspect 2 raises. Suspect 1 calls, I 3-bet. Suspect 2 makes it 4 bets. Suspect 1 CALLS, I think "Well, maybe I'm wrong and this guy has quads" so I call and show my boat instantly.

Both suspects quickly toss their cards face down, but I ask to see both hands. Both players give me the business for asking to see them, but I insist and both hands are absolute garbage. Neither one had a pair or anything close to a flush or a straight.

I chuckle a bit but otherwise remain quiet, don't say anything and tell the floor person about this the next time I get up to take a whizz. He tells me that he has had a few complaints over the last week or so and has security watching them like a hawk.

My question is: what else can the average Joe like me look for as far as collusion so I don't take it in the butt? I'd love to catch these douchbags in the act, but frankly, I've only been playing B&M for a few months and don't know what to look for except for situations like this.

[Boltsfan1992]

[ QUOTE ]


Both suspects quickly toss their cards face down, but I ask to see both hands. Both players give me the business for asking to see them, but I insist and both hands are absolute garbage. Neither one had a pair or anything close to a flush or a straight.

I chuckle a bit but otherwise remain quiet, don't say anything and tell the floor person about this the next time I get up to take a whizz. He tells me that he has had a few complaints over the last week or so and has security watching them like a hawk.

My question is: what else can the average Joe like me look for as far as collusion so I don't take it in the butt? I'd love to catch these douchbags in the act, but frankly, I've only been playing B&M for a few months and don't know what to look for except for situations like this.

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I think you did all that you can do, save for not playing with these people again. Seeing the hands at the end was your right, and I would have done the same in your situation. The way they hesitated showing you their cards said to me that they were up to SOMETHING. Also, the floor people were aware of these two players, so your complaint just added more information.

You could get up while mildly protesting so that the other players would pay attention to what is going on or they may leave as well - difficult possibly if the table is otherwise good. If people are working together, I don't see how it could be unless they were colluding badly.

I'm sure there are more sophisticated ways to collude in person, or maybe this is the standard way...advice that others can give would be helpful for me as well.

PB

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

It could be collusion, but I doubt it based on this single hand. You are caught in between them, but unless they trap people in between them repeatedly, I can't call it collusion.

On the river, when it is clear that you are going to keep raising, you would expect the colluding partner without a hand to drop out as soon as he/she can so that they put less money in and don't have to show the bad hand at the end. The fact that they both called you to the end makes it appear like they both had something. If they were colluding, they were very stupid -- you were clearly not going anywhere after call-reraising the turn. It looks to me more like they know each others patterns and were trying to beat each other. A lot of people get upset when you ask to see the cards and it shows that they played stupid.

Personally, I think collusion in B&M poker is very rare (especially at small stakes) and not very effective (since each player only has two cards).

[Luv2DriveTT]

Why would you complain about these two obviously poor poker players? Sounds like my kind of game!

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Obviously they are whipsawing as they tried to do here, that's usually how people collude in limit poker. Great job busting their assess with the boat. Most who attempt collusion like this aren't good players, and are stupid enough to be obvious like these two. If you should find yourself playing in their game often you should ask to see both hands nearly every time, this is like the only time the "IWTSTH rule" is actually being used for what it was intended for.

However, the best thing to do with collusion is always to quietly and privately alert the floor. If they won't do something about it, switch tables, because even the best players in the universe are at a serious disadvantage to a team.

More sophisticated cheaters may be much harder to spot, even for even seasoned players. If you even slightly suspect collusion, just don't play in that game.

al

[Bremen]

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...but I insist and both hands are absolute garbage. Neither one had a pair or anything close to a flush or a straight.

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um, are they that dumb that they don't realize at least one of them needs a hand to make this kind of play? Wait till one has AA and then trap someone in between, much more effective if you have a chance of beating the trapped person at showdown.

[jordanx]

That is odd, but it doesn't look like they were colluding to do anything but loose a bunch of money.

If Suspect 1 had bet and 2 had raised, making you cold call to stay in, or if one of them had a decent hand, then it would make sense.

[M.B.E.]

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Obviously they are whipsawing as they tried to do here,

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Al, the river play at any rate does not look like a whipsaw:

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River...blank. Suspect 1 checks, I bet, Suspect 2 raises. Suspect 1 calls, I 3-bet. Suspect 2 makes it 4 bets. Suspect 1 CALLS, I think "Well, maybe I'm wrong and this guy has quads" so I call and show my boat instantly.

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[jordanx]

From what I've read, people who collude will usually act like they don't know eachother, but you will see eye contact and they will be in hands together raising it up.

Chip placing or signaling are methods for players to communicate hand strengths.

Honestly, I think a smart player would catch on to real collusion pretty easily.

If you have two players that on one occasion or more are ramming and jamming where one of ends up having a good hand and the other mucks on the river or at the showdown than you should be wary.

[canis582]

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Chip placing or signaling are methods for players to communicate hand strengths.


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How do you know all this, plus, that would be a great tell.