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#1
03-29-2005, 01:19 AM
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Raising the turn with the worse hand.
20/40 Foxwoods
My opponent in this hand is an older gentleman, very Tight-ABC, even more than me, believe it mike l.! He is chatting about Ed's book and how it's built for the game we are in, eventhough the book is tilted, "Small Stakes...." blah, blah, meow chow meow.... He's right about the game. 3 super loose limpers to me and I limp on the button w/Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB completes, The older ABC player is in the BB and checks We take 6 players to the flop for 5.75SBs. Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Checked to me and I bet, SB folds, now the older ABC check-raises and actually clears out all the limpers, I call. Heads up to the turn for 5BBs: Turn: T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] He bets and I raise. Comments? Peace, Joe Tall 
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#2
03-29-2005, 01:30 AM
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Re: Raising the turn with the worse hand.
The validity of the move depends on how sure you are that you're behind. In general I really like the move. When you get there you win an extra bet, but if you don't you cost yourself the same as if you call down. It depends though, of how likely you think he has an A. If you are 100% you can't win at showdown you are just costing yourself money.
If this is the case (100% sure you are behind) say you call the turn and raise a river J/K/9, call a Q, and fold everything else. Forgetting briefly about the Q you win 3bets when you get there and lose 1 when you don't. If you raise the turn and bet the K/J/9 river and check everything else then you are winning the same 3bets when ahead but losing 2 when you don't get there, check through the river, and lose to an A.
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#3
03-29-2005, 01:56 AM
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Re: Raising the turn with the worse hand.
It depends though, of how likely you think he has an A
I think it's very likely he has an Ace. In fact I'm sure my 2pair outs are clean too given his flop c/r. Peace, Joe Tall
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#4
03-29-2005, 02:25 AM
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Re: Raising the turn with the worse hand.
[ QUOTE ]
The validity of the move depends on how sure you are that you're behind. In general I really like the move. When you get there you win an extra bet, but if you don't you cost yourself the same as if you call down. It depends though, of how likely you think he has an A. If you are 100% you can't win at showdown you are just costing yourself money. If this is the case (100% sure you are behind) say you call the turn and raise a river J/K/9, call a Q, and fold everything else. Forgetting briefly about the Q you win 3bets when you get there and lose 1 when you don't. If you raise the turn and bet the K/J/9 river and check everything else then you are winning the same 3bets when ahead but losing 2 when you don't get there, check through the river, and lose to an A. [/ QUOTE ] goofball, Doesn't it seem reasonable that a recently SSH-aware mid-high player might c/r a hand like A3o (or even possibly KJo) on this flop? If that's possible, then there's also a pretty decent chance he'd fold to a raise on the turn, right? I swear that I've read the exact opposite of this hand in SSH somewhere -- where Ed mentions that after you c/r the flop you're best betting the turn and folding if raised, since the pot isn't super large. The pot is larger here, though, so it's closer.
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#5
03-29-2005, 02:27 AM
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Re: Raising the turn with the worse hand.
Yeah, A-x seems his most likely hand and Mr. A-B-C will be hard-pressed to call with it. Unless he picked up a flush draw, or thinks you might have. I'd feel better about things if the ace of hearts were on the board. But that's a tough board for him to call your raise with just A-x.
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#6
03-29-2005, 03:10 AM
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Re: Raising the turn with the worse hand.
[ QUOTE ]
20/40 Foxwoods My opponent in this hand is an older gentleman, very Tight-ABC, even more than me, believe it mike l.! He is chatting about Ed's book and how it's built for the game we are in, eventhough the book is tilted, "Small Stakes...." blah, blah, meow chow meow.... He's right about the game. 3 super loose limpers to me and I limp on the button w/Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB completes, The older ABC player is in the BB and checks We take 6 players to the flop for 5.75SBs. Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Checked to me and I bet, SB folds, now the older ABC check-raises and actually clears out all the limpers, I call. Heads up to the turn for 5BBs: Turn: T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] He bets and I raise. Comments? Peace, Joe Tall [/ QUOTE ] Let me preface this by saying that I am a 3/6 player (6/12 live), so maybe my instincts about my opponents is of no use here. IMO this play only makes sense if villain is capable of ditching TP. Hero will get there 13/45 times. If villain will dump it 32/45, then the move is +EV. This seems a bit optimistic IMO as in my experience people get married to top pair.
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#7
03-29-2005, 07:27 AM
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Who ever folds top pair?
Haha, sometimes I spend too much time in the party game. I didn't consider for a second that you might be trying to push him off top pair. Obviously this adds profitability to the move depending on how often you can do it succesfully.
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#8
03-29-2005, 08:55 AM
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Re: Raising the turn with the worse hand.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] My opponent ... very Tight-ABC, even more than me, [/ QUOTE ] IMO this play only makes sense if villain is capable of ditching TP. [/ QUOTE ] I think the answer is already there. Bob
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#9
03-29-2005, 02:29 PM
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Re: Raising the turn with the worse hand.
[ QUOTE ]
ABC player [/ QUOTE ] I often read on these boards about ABC players or ABC poker and I am not entirely clear what this means. I have a few questions about ABC poker #1 What exactly is ABC poker, is it the type of poker described in Lee Jones Winning Low Limit Holdem book. Or because things are constantly moving on in the poker world would ABC poker now be what is explained in Matthew Hilgers book or in Ed Millers book. #2 Up to what limit (on line) can one play ABC poker and still expect to be a winning player. #3 Up to what limit in a real casino can one expect to win by playing ABC.
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#10
03-29-2005, 02:36 PM
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Re: Raising the turn with the worse hand.
expert move.
abc tight player will fold better 1 pair hands and will almost certainly not reraise you without 3 of a kind. the key to making this play profitable is that the abc player is not aggressive enough, and youre punishing him for this trait.
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