Microlimits needs a library

[Aaron W.]

And some librarians... This is the sort of project that would really benefit the entire forum. But I need some help getting it started. I don't know if this project will go anywhere, but it's worth a shot.

Overall picture - The search function works, but it's a little hard to get what you really want out of it, and many times you've got to wade through far too many posts to find things. I would like to see something like a library, where you can go in and click around to get to certain shelves which contain the posts which are actually relevant to your question. This would be nice for quick reference and reviewing common situations.

But there are a few steps between here and there.

Step 1 - Library Orgainization

There are so many ways of sorting hands:
- Hand type (AK, JJ, T9s...) and concept (Equity, free card, slowplaying)
- Position (Early, Middle, Late, Blinds)
- Street-based decision (Preflop decisions, flop decisions...)
- Situation (Overcards, PP flops overcards, Flush Draw, Weak Draws, Heads up...)
- Lines (call-call-call, call-call-bet, bet-fold, stop and go...)
- Others (Ed Miller essays)

This is hard because I don't know how best to orgainize these things into reasonable categories. It could be something like a Dewey Decimal System, but that's cumbersome because of all the overlap of concepts. My idea is that hands would be flagged with certain properties which could somehow be searched and sorted, which brings us to...

Step 2 - Library hosting and access

Someone would need to put together an accessible database (someone who is fluent in web programming would be nice -- I am not such a someone!). I imagine being able to "browse" the library shelves and to search for hands which meet the flagged criteria from above (KK + overcard on the flop, Axs + flush draw, 22 + set). Once the organizational aspect is taken care of, I think it will be much more clear what to do here.

I imagine only getting a series of links which point back to the 2+2 forum server (okay, it's more like a card catalog than a library), . It would be silly to store the entire posts when someone else is already doing that.

Step 3 - Library maintainance

Once it's up and running, it would be good to have a team of people who will keep adding entries into the library (how many? I don't know.). It would be on the programmer in step 2 to make "librarian" access available to those who want to do it. They would need to figure out how to do it in a way that doesn't end up with duplicate entries.

I guess one person could do this alone, but that would be an everyday task that most people won't want to commit to.

Here's what is needed *NOW* in order for this project to get off the ground: What is the best way of organizing posts? How can we make it so that it will be easy to find something you're looking for? Just think about the types of things you want to know and the sorts of parameters you would want to use to get to that information.

[Isura]

This is a very good idea. To get this started though, my idea is to start a new thread where everyone can post the links to their favorite posts (eg. classic Ed Miller posts, etc to get it started). From this, hopefully a natural structure to organize the posts will arise. I'm no expert in web hosting, but I assume that since most of the contents will be URL's to 2+2 posts, space shouldn't be an issue. I'll post some of my favorite posts here to get it started.

[Isura]

Here's some useful stuff I dug up. The categories in the parenthesis are just guesses for organization purposes.

You play too tight – Nate (general theory)
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...art=1&vc=1

5 things LL players should "unlearn" – Clarkmeister (general)
http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...t=all&vc=1

Charging flush draws – Ed Miller (general theory)
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...928&Forum=,,c2,,&Words=&Searchpage=2&Limit=25&am p;Main=459301&Search=true&where=bodysub&am p;Name=&daterange=1&newerval=2&newerty pe=y&

QQ on K22 board – Ed Miller (standard line)
http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...&fpart=all

Preflop Play: Take off the training wheels – Ed Miller (general theory)
http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...t=all&vc=1

How to make river decisions – GuyOnTilt (theory and hand example)
http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...t=all&vc=1

[mhardy]

A great idea Aaron.

I'd like to get my name on this thread to volunteer for whatever (I don't have a web site/html skills but am willing to do whatever grunt work someone might come up with). Anyone email or PM me here.

Maybe #1 could be categorized under 2-4 skill levels. A "beginner's" top level wouldn't need to be concerned with equity for instance. Maybe that kind of categorization would lend itself to sorting the concepts? Just a couple branches at the top spreading out from there...

[MrWookie47]

I think the best way of organizing it would be with two designations: one for hand type, and one for opponent type. That's not too extensive, but it would cover many basic questions. Hand types could be (not necessarily limited to) overpairs, top pair, second pair, weaker pairs, sets, trips, flush draws, straight draws, unpaired overcards, flushes, straights, and monsters, as well as including "general theory," and "preflop." Opponent types would likely be typical, unknown, loose passive, LAGs, TAGs, rocks, and maniacs, or perhaps just use all of the PT definitions (sLAP, sLAA, TPA, etc.).

That would cover the most basic queries. I might also be tempted to add a third and fourth designation: two booleans, one for the board, simply coordinated or uncoordinated, and one for heads up or multiway. I'm not sure if that would be useful, or going overboard. That's sort of why I didn't have any additional elucidation of the preflop category. Since preflop play is as black and white as it gets in poker, devoting so much search to it is kind of pointless.

A search feature for this library could then have a set of check boxes for what hand types you want to search for, and with what opponent types (possibly two sets of radio buttons for the two booleans, plus an "unspecified" option). A user could check the boxes of interest and get back a series of pages that match any or all of the criteria specified.

I realize I'm neglecting position-related searches, since that is important. However, I would hope that eventually, in a populated library, a query for a hand type and opponent type would yield results of plays made from many positions, giving the reader an opportunity to see how play chages for that situation based on the position.

A more complicated system may let players find a hand post that very nearly matches his or her own situation, but I'm not sure that would be better. There's always the KISS philosophy to consider, plus the fact that looking at many related, yet not identical, examples may help you to better consider the various factors going into your decision, rather than just finding out how exactly to play a specific situation should it ever come up again. This is also why I think specifying play by a particular street is too much. So much of what you do on a given street depends on hand type, opponent type, and what you did on the previous street, that sorting by "Turn issues," I think isn't as useful. Also, SSH does a fine job of covering general issues relating to general play on each street.

The more I think about this, the more I wish it was implemented in the 2+2 search feature already. Good idea.

[MrWookie47]

Just to add on to my previous point, I made that post with the mindset that this library isn't there to spoonfeed players all the right answers in every situation. Instead, it would be set up with a goal to give players the tools to find many different situations to consider, read their consensus answers, and then to synthesize the considerations into their own personal question. Or, if they can't find an acceptable set of related situations, they then post the hand for discussion. If this library's goal is to have more of a spoonfeeding role, then a more specific search function will be necessary.

While I'm thinking about it, keeping a database set up in the above manner wouldn't be too ridiculous. It would require a dedicated, web-capable person or persons (sorry, web-capable means not me) to categorize the days' posts, and add the link to the database, along with the relevant category information and the post title. It's not easy, given the volume of posts, but keeping the number of variables small will sure help out the people responsible.

[btspider]

i suggested this the last time it came up.. this would be if no external system would be introduced and we had to work with the forum structure here.

create a master favorites thread that has links to all the categorical favorites thread.

each categorical favorite thread would have a specific focus (that could further be broken down). anytime there is a favorite worthy hand/topic, it'd be linked to in the appropriate subtopic.. but we'd only need the reference to the master topic to find anything.

e.g.

Topic 1: Master thread (has links to topic A, B, C, etc..)

Topic A: overcards (links to favorite worthy topics + links to topic A1, A2, ...)

Topic A1: PFR'd overcards that should not be auto-bet on the flop
Topic A2: overcards that are UI on the turn..

Topic B: big draws

Topic C: HU lines..

etc..

[KaiShin]

Could such a thread be flagged so it could be perpetually editable? Cause it would suck to continuously have to post updates and stuff instead of just changing the OP.

[Aaron W.]

It's a good idea, but I worry that it may get difficult to use as the chain gets longer. I see that turning into a strange maze of links that's hard to move through as the chain gets longer and the number of sub-classes increases. It will also be hard to work with updates when new favorite posts start popping up. This also has a management problem when people start putting in things that don't really belong, and so forth... (but I leave it open for you can convince me that it won't happen that way)

This still has the same classification problem that my system has. What are the categories of things that we want? How should it be organized? I think that's the bigger hurdle than the nuts and bolts of how we put it together.

[Stuey]

My head hurts thinking about trying this.
It is a great idea but lets look for the easy answer.
I don't know much about poker or programming.
But I know how to get out of doing hard work!!
Here is my idea I don't think it is the answer but
it might push the great minds here in the right direction.

The search function does not work well enough.
There is a ton of information being rehashed because the
Original discussions get lost.
So how can we make the search function work better?
Build a new one? NO too much work
Change the way we post so this one works better? Yup yup yup

The subject line of a post is important! Don't waste it
with stuff you think will make you sound cool.
Let's standardize it! Here is an example

(Table position of hero) (raises/unraised preflop)
(hero's hand) // (hand identifier) I need poker expert to
detail these.

MP1 Raises KK // Turn paired board HU

Anyway the idea is you cannot make up your own subject line.
You have to pick from a glossary of terms provided that suit
your example.

This would become our dewy decimal system!
It needs to be setup by someone who knows poker well.
It needs to be used by the posters.
It will encompass a huge number of poker situations but
that is ok we are going to build this library one hand at a time.

Next we have to identify good threads. We need a watchman.
Threads that have every idea about the situation
explained and examined. We need to actively post in these
threads to raise the quality of them not me but smart guys.

When the librarian thinks a thread is good enough to save he
puts a link to it in the main thread.
They are listed in order like this or close to it.
Depends on our system.

MP1 raises KK // turn paired board HU is before
MP2 raises KK // turn paired board HU which is far above
MP1 raises 99 // flop no trips muti way
This is our card file!

When some joker posts a hand that has been covered
We flame him and send him to the saved thread
If someone does not post the hand using the system
We do not reply to it.

I think I stole btspiders idea!
Anyway I like the idea of the library.
But I’m to lazy to help much.
Make a new thread for this the links above are killing me.