suited connectors (beginner question)

[HeroInBlack]

I, like most beginning players, love suited connectors.

But, I've been thinking about them a lot lately. One of the biggest mistakes beginners make is calling with improper odds, especially on flush draws. If you play any stakes up to .10/.25, and you flop top pair and bet the pot, you WILL get called by anybody with a flush draw. Now, they are roughly getting the odds to call, IF they see the river for free, but of course, we're not going to let that happen, so you make them call two bets they shouldn't and you profit.

Now let's put ourselves on the other side. We limp in with T9s and flop a flush draw, no pair, no straight draw. Our opponent bets the pot. Now, we're a smart player, right? So, we either fold or reraise. Now, at the aforementioned low limits, your reraise is going to get called about 90% of the time. Top pair is a legitimate hand to call a reraise with for these guys, even if you triple their raise or raise it the size of the pot. So, you can't semi-bluff him into folding. I guess you could call without proper pot odds, hoping your implied odds will make it work out for you, but when the turn or the river makes a 3-flush on the board, most anybody is going to slow down a lot, so I submit that your implied odds really aren't much better than the pure pot odds. If you're on the OESD, that's much better, as it's not obvious to your opponent that you have the nuts. You might be able to get some money out of him after you make your hand. But with your flush, they pretty much know.

So, is the proper play to fold?

And if it is, you know, you so rarely flop a flush, why are we even playing these crappy suited connectors?

Please educate me.

[Unarmed]

Weak draws suck when you're heads up. That's why you should be looking for reasons NOT to play SC and only play them when conditions are optimal. I.E. deep stacks, good position, several limpers.

45s UTG = crap
45s Button with 5 limpers = heaven

[schwza]

this is good analysis. as the other poster said, SC's are only playable in position. here are some reasons they are playable at all:

- you can semi-bluff if you flop a draw and are checked to
- you sometimes get free cards
- you can flop combination draws (flush draw + pair/straight draw)
- some people don't bet enough (e.g., betting 1/4 pot)
- there is also 2-pair/trips value

[kurto]

"you WILL get called by anybody with a flush draw." That's simplistic. If a player isn't completely fishy, there will be a lot of considerations that would determine if they would call with a flush draw. Stack sizes. How many players are in the pot. What are the odds if they call they'll get reraised. How high is their flush draw. And, do they think they'll be able to get more from their opponents if they hit their flush draw.

"We limp in with T9s and flop a flush draw, no pair, no straight draw." Where are we limping in from? Is the suited A on the board? Stack sizes? Ability of opponents? There's a lot of information needed to address this properly.

"So, we either fold or reraise. Now, at the aforementioned low limits, your reraise is going to get called about 90% of the time." Personally, I wouldn't advocate a reraise with a T high flush draw. I would want other outs (and preferably a stronger flush) to make this play.

I would not automatically fold. I would have to consider who my opponent(s) are (and how many there are) and how deep their stacks are. (I'm not sure this is a consensus or not)

"Top pair is a legitimate hand to call a reraise with for these guys," Especially if their opponents are known to reraise them with a semibluff as the underdog. They SHOULD be calling then. Matter of fact, if they knew you were likely semibluffing, they should reraise you.

"So, you can't semi-bluff him into folding." But, if you're going to call a turn bet if you miss, then a semibluff is good if it buys you a cheap river.

"I guess you could call without proper pot odds, hoping your implied odds will make it work out for you, but when the turn or the river makes a 3-flush on the board, most anybody is going to slow down a lot" This is why player reads are important. At the microtable, I have people betting into me when I have the Ace high flush all the time. These people will pay you off if you hit. Helps to know your opponent to know if this is a good gamble.

"So, is the proper play to fold?" I suspect the answer is, "mostly.... but it depends."

"And if it is, you know, you so rarely flop a flush, why are we even playing these crappy suited connectors?" Because you flop real monsters or real monster draws. Minor strong flops... 2 pair. If you flop TP, OESD and Flush draw... you have a monster. Though you'd rathar hit a straight with these hands then a flush, since you rarely have the nutflush, and flushes are so transparent. But if you played a 56s on the button... and the flop came 3-4-7... people aren't too quick to give you credit for the straight.

These hands are good to play cheaply, in late position, against deep stacks. If everyone's buying in for half a stack... you should probably fold them.

[kurto]

I need to learn to simplify. I babble a chapter. You guys efficiently post a blurb.

[fimbulwinter]

this is something very often misunderstood by new players, i'll give it a real college try later, but here's a hand to think about:

villain AK[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], you 78[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]


preflop:
you along with others call his 4xBB PFR. lets say you have 1/2 the average pot equity with your SC (like if there were 4 players, you have (1/2)(1/4) for 1/8th pot equity).

net for you is -4 plus (sorry my plus/equals key is broke) (1/8)(16) is -2BB

flop:
K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

he bets full pot @ 16xBB, you call and one other K call. lets say you just plan on seeing the turn and nothing else, so your equity right now is 0.

net -16BB
total -18BB

turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

yay, he bets 3/4 pot at 48BB and you call and the weak K drops out. notice now he is drawing dead for two rounds of betting. also notice now that you've more than made up your loss in EV.

again, my math sucks, but what the example should illustrate is that even in the easiest method (calling) these hands and their play can be profitable if the play is multiway, the stacks are deep enough and you don't chase onto the river unless you're on huge stacks.

the big value of these hands is beating big pairs and other non-nut draws on the flop or turn so you have two rounds of pure 100% equity betting to extract money. there are very few other hands that have this kind of advantage, not even PP's that become sets.

viva SC's

fim

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
also notice now that you've more than made up your loss in EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

How so? This draw only hits on the turn one in six times -- your example makes up for the loss in EV because the draw hits.

Everything you said after this seems very well stated.. but I think your loss in EV is only made up in the implied odds of hitting your draw when your opponent has a deep stack -- that's when he is paying you off significantly while drawing dead. Otherwise, I don't think the chances of hitting your straight on the turn erase the EV loss (right??)

I don't know that it's necessarily as mathematical here, because it's player-dependent on whether or not your opponent will fold TPTK or even two pair... or whether they keep calling your raises and firing out more bets. I don't play my SCs for nearly as much value against players who 1) have shallow stacks or 2) don't bet or call much with their TPTK/overpair hands.

-dB

[Borno]

I understand your problem and cant wait to read what some of my most respected SSNL posters have to say about this subject.

I however believe these cards have huge implied odds and will pay out in the long run especially with the passive styles of these small stakes games.

If you are bet into, consider folding... If you are bet into consider raising aggressively...

You know calling is wrong. You just have to look at the player and consider which move you want to make and when.

there will be

[BobboFitos]

there was a post from Mid/High a while ago from limon about playing draws in general, and there was a really intelligent line that he said: (speaking about suited connectors)

[ QUOTE ]
eel free to pick it apart. i generally dont think about this stuff so writing it down quickly leaves alot of gaps. i hate seeing multi way flops out of position with suited connectors. TJs is the worst hand ill play out of position for a limp and even then i pray someone will raise behind me. then i love the hand cause 2 cards to broadway when they hit is the type of had that has a raiser dominated and trapped. i might be giving away too much but one of the best things about super system is that everyone only read that doyle brunson likes these hands but missed the part where he says he likes to play them for a raise in position. if i dont have or cant buy position i just dump these in a hurry. in your case i think you could have bought position, you should have raised pre-flop. if you know the button wont fold you should dump.

[/ QUOTE ]



Limons wisdom

Thats the complete post, hope this helps