How Bad Am I?

JAA · #1 03-24-2005, 06:06 AM

"Good" in this hand is a 20/6, "Bad" is a 50/13. I will save my logic until after I get a few responses. Comments on all streets encouraged. Even if you would have folded on the flop, please flame me on the following streets as well.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter
Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Good posts a blind of $15.
2 folds, Bad calls, 3 folds, Good (poster) checks, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, Bad bets, Good raises, Hero calls, BB folds, Bad calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, Bad checks, Good bets, Hero raises, Bad calls, Good folds.

River: (10 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players) Hero Bets...

Comments appreciated - Jags

Spicymoose · #2 03-24-2005, 01:35 PM

I don't really play in this game, but I don't understand why you would check raise the turn. "Good" almost certainly isn't folding, and you don't have your hand yet. Why not just draw to your outs? The rest looks fine to me.

Please explain.

jayheaps · #3 03-24-2005, 01:39 PM

the fundamental problem with the hand is that you are trying to bluff a bad player. If he calls the checkraise turn, he will likely call the river with anything. Based on this, turn play is an easy check-fold.

oscark · #4 03-24-2005, 01:53 PM

You don't think there is an excellent chance bad is on a draw? I don't like the flop call much, but love the rest.

JAA · #5 03-24-2005, 06:30 PM

Thanks for the input Spicymoose...

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really play in this game, but I don't understand why you would check raise the turn. "Good" almost certainly isn't folding, and you don't have your hand yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would argue the fact that Good isn't folding here. In fact, the only reason why I took this line was because I put Good on a hand he could fold. He almost has to give me credit for a strong hand when I checkraise two players, especially since I was an unraised blind and could easily have a 5. Good players will lay down moderately strong hands here, and this is what I was hoping for. If not, I still have outs.

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just draw to your outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess the heart of the matter is: I don't want to "just" draw to my outs. If Good has a hand he can fold and Bad is also on a draw (which I put him on), I have a good chance to scoop the pot whether or not I catch.

I find myself making this move very occasionally but with good results (I am referring to checkraising two players, one who is capable of laying down a moderately strong holding and the other who seems to be on a draw) Does anyone else make this play, or am I just trying to be fancy?

- Jags

JAA · #6 03-24-2005, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Based on this, turn play is an easy check-fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your argument for check/folding the turn?
I don't really see one.

- Jags

lil feller · #7 03-24-2005, 07:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Good players will lay down moderately strong hands here, and this is what I was hoping for. If not, I still have outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the heart of the matter is: I don't want to "just" draw to my outs. If Good has a hand he can fold and Bad is also on a draw (which I put him on), I have a good chance to scoop the pot whether or not I catch

[/ QUOTE ]

nope.

The problem is that if bad is on a draw, it probably has you smothered or chopped. If he has the big straight draw, you're ok, but if he has the flush draw or some combination of your straight draw and the flush draw you're in trouble. I see this being very likely, as its tough to narrow down what this sort of player will play PF. Now you're betting on him missing, including making a pair, and folding to one more BB in a huge pot. Against a snuggy who might have limped with a big suited ace and flopped a flush draw, this move has merit, but trying to bluff a bad player is just not smart. The only way this can work is if he

1. Is on a draw
2. Misses
3. doesn't have a pair
4. doesn't just want to see you're hand.

I don't like it.

lf

JAA · #8 03-24-2005, 08:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that if bad is on a draw, it probably has you smothered or chopped. If he has the big straight draw, you're ok, but if he has the flush draw or some combination of your straight draw and the flush draw you're in trouble. I see this being very likely, as its tough to narrow down what this sort of player will play PF. Now you're betting on him missing, including making a pair, and folding to one more BB in a huge pot. Against a snuggy who might have limped with a big suited ace and flopped a flush draw, this move has merit, but trying to bluff a bad player is just not smart. The only way this can work is if he

1. Is on a draw
2. Misses
3. doesn't have a pair
4. doesn't just want to see you're hand.

I don't like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point here, and this is acutally the main reason why I posted the hand. In this case Bad did fold on the river, but after the feeling of superiority passsed I realized that maybe my line wasn't so great in the first place.

I do know that bad isn't going to call me with something like bottom pair here; I have seen him fold for one bet on the river in similar situations. I think I said in an earlier post in this thread that he was "bad" in that he was too loose preflop, but was not the auto-going to a showdown type.

Still, the decision seems close, especially because of your point #4. I think it's close.

- Jags

imashyboi · #9 03-28-2005, 10:18 AM

I thought the plays are a little too aggressive on such a small pot. Calling half a bet on the SB isn't bad, calling the raise on the FLOP is standard too. Betting out first is pretty much worthless with so many combination draws.

The TURN play is a little too aggressive however, if the 5c was a 5h then raising would have been a good play. Without the flush draw you only have about 8 outs, lot less if someone held 2 flush cards. With 5BB on the TURN both straight and flush draw will be calling your raise. With two players still in after the flop raise your not going to get alot of hands to fold, 78 will call you till the river as well. The only hands your raise will get to fold is probably any lone Ax, 2 over cards, even JT, maybe.

Your 9 high for sure isn't high. Not being close to the button on the river is critical since you might get c/r by Bad Player if you bluff again. The A on the river is very scary even though your faily sure Bad Player is on a straight draw.

Again what hand can you beat with your 94s if he doesn't fold on the turn, pretty much nothing. Your crossing your fingers that both players doesn't call or they are both weak tight.

JasonP530 · #10 03-28-2005, 03:25 PM

If good is "good", then he would think you dont have a 5, unless it is 85 or 54, which you would have led, with hopefully the best hand and a draw. If you flopped two pair on that board and filled, you would have played it fast on the flop given that board. There is just no way you would have cold called 2 on the flop with a hand that would not have led into two blinds.