Overplayed Top Set?

chiachu · #1 03-24-2005, 04:47 AM

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 3 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero caps, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG caps, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (23 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, MP2 folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 31 BB

ChoicestHops · #2 03-24-2005, 04:51 AM

Only thing you lose to is quads. I would play it the same way.

milesdyson · #3 03-24-2005, 04:54 AM

Raise preflop!

Bet/raise/raise/raise the flop - Calling UTG's turn raise, although there are only two hands that beat you there (QT or T7), is an option. 3-betting is not terrible by any means.

River, bet, 3-bet, cap, 5-bet, whatever. If you lose to 88, so be it.

Nice hand - this is not overplayed, unless you knew that UTG was incredibly passive, in which case you should just call his turn raise.

Shillx · #4 03-24-2005, 04:56 AM

Turn and river are fine. The preflop and flop play are pathetic however.

Brad

chiachu · #5 03-24-2005, 05:09 AM

Ive just recently switched to limit from playing no limit exclusively for over a year. I thought simply calling with JJ wasnt bad since i was out of position, but i guess not.

Shillx, why did you not like the flop play? Should i just bet out? I was thinking that since this was such a draw heavy board id rather go for the checkraise to charge the draws more.

Oh, and i wasnt worried about quad 8's, i was more concerned about the turn play (considered just calling instead of 3-betting it), since it seemed very likely he flopped a straight.

caggin · #6 03-24-2005, 05:12 AM

Raise preflop, you have a premium hand! I was hesitant too, when I first started playing, to raise in the blinds with less than QQ. But you gotta do it! You're paying one bet to add 4-5 bets to the pot. And you're gonna win way more often than 20% of the time. (My stats tell me I've won almost 50% of the time w/ JJ.)

Bet out the flop! You got lucky MP2 bet. It would've been disastrous if it was checked around!

On the turn, I might slow down after UTG's raise. But 3-betting is ok too. Depends on what reads you have on him (if he's passive or aggressive).

On the river, bet/raise and don't stop. If you're beat, you're beat. But odds are in your favor.

jaxUp · #7 03-24-2005, 05:20 AM

interesting, and pretty useless question, how many bets would you go for on the river in an uncapped scenario? Assume a stack of 50BB

Shillx · #8 03-24-2005, 05:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ive just recently switched to limit from playing no limit exclusively for over a year. I thought simply calling with JJ wasnt bad since i was out of position, but i guess not.

Shillx, why did you not like the flop play? Should i just bet out? I was thinking that since this was such a draw heavy board id rather go for the checkraise to charge the draws more.

Oh, and i wasnt worried about quad 8's, i was more concerned about the turn play (considered just calling instead of 3-betting it), since it seemed very likely he flopped a straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

One reason why you should take slightly the worst of it on the turn is because you will reap bigger rewards on the river when you fill up. Since he will figure you for a straight, you might get 2-4 bets on the river should you fill. Since he puts you on a straight, he will keep pounding away with a caller in the middle (who is clearly beat by a straight). The EV on the 3-bet and upcoming cap is:

EV = .22*6 - 2 = -.7 BB

Since you will be paying one bet on the river when you don't fill up, you need to get 1.7 BB in implied odds when you do fill. Notice that you got 4 BB on the river here. If the caller would have put some bets in on the river, you do even better. You also have to understand that your hand will sometimes be good on the turn to begin with.

Brad

EDIT: For similar reasons, this is why you should sometimes overplay your strong draws even when the odds dictate that you might be taking slightly the worst of it. Say you have a 12 out draw on the flop and it is HU. By giving lots of action here, the villian might assume you for some type of made hand (like top pair) and then siphon off extra bets when you happen to make your straight or flush (assuming that his overpair is good). Similar comments apply to the turn and a big 15 out draw. You can sometimes "pump" the pot because people will pay you better when you make your hand. So by giving up say ~1 BB in EV on the turn, you might expect to get 4 or 5 extra BB of EV on the river should you make your hand. Since you will be making your hand 33% of the time, it is a good trade off.

matix · #9 03-24-2005, 05:25 AM

i think you should bet out like mad, if they are going for draws they will call any bet and if they don't hit it on the turn they will call to the river (it's .5/1 games and most drawers draw out like bastards even when they "shouldn't") either way, there aren't many hands to beat you and you'd prolly maximize your winnings in the long run by betting this out rather than waiting.

you have the made hand here if no one flopped the straight, and i think flopping 2 pair would be just as likely to be betting into you on this hand

chaz64 · #10 03-24-2005, 11:11 AM

Yeah, raise pre-flop.

A flop check raise would be fine if you expected a bet and wanted to drive people out. Here I want people in the hand to pay me off. You can't just assume someone has a straight just because one is possible, and even if they do you have outs to a better hand. Fire those chips.