Was this too weak?

Sadico · #1 03-23-2005, 03:47 PM

Game is Pokerstars 0.50/1 full table
I'm dealt Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in late position with 1 limper and make it $5 to go. BB calls and the limper folds

Flop:
3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB bets $13 and I fold

never played the guy before, one of the firsts hand in the table

how should I play it?

kurto · #2 03-23-2005, 04:09 PM

I'd like to know stacksizes.

1) In the absence of any other information, I'll give players with a large stack size more credit then a short stack for not being complete idiots.
2) How much more are you apt to lose on the turn and river?

I find his overbet curious. Some people do it because they're afraid to be called and want to win it with their medium strength hand now (He could have 10J). The only time I would overbet like that is if I had multiple opponents in the pot and I was concerned about a draw. OR, if I was certain someone would call it. (since bets like that usually induce folds, I'm unlikely to do it with a monster because I want action...) If I was playing against myself, I would be suspicious of that bet.

If he was all in (ie, he had been shortstacked and I think more likely to be making a move), I would lean towards calling. If the guy had me covered, I might lean the other way.

KowCiller · #3 03-23-2005, 04:20 PM

I never play on poker stars, but on party this bet means a jack, 9, or any pocket pair. The overbet screams "please don't call" and he thinks you're on AK.

Against an unknown, I would probably put in a decent raise, perhaps $33 or so, and fold to a re-raise. If he calls and checks the turn, I then check behind and call a river bet.

That's against a typical party player... not sure how that would differ from PokerStars?

KoW

kurto · #4 03-23-2005, 04:28 PM

"That's against a typical party player... not sure how that would differ from PokerStars?"

I just switched from Stars to Party. Its like playing 2 completely different games. I find these open over-bets were practically non existent on Pokerstars.

That's the hardest part I'm having adjusting... there's bad players on both sites, but they play bad 'differently.' ie Partypoker is more aggressive, including 'more aggressively bad.' Its harder for me to know yet what a bet means.

KowCiller · #5 03-23-2005, 04:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That's the hardest part I'm having adjusting... there's bad players on both sites, but they play bad 'differently.' ie Partypoker is more aggressive, including 'more aggressively bad.' Its harder for me to know yet what a bet means.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the same reason, I think just calling this flop bet is ok too. If you get against the right person who is going to continuously bet his J5o because "hey, it's top pair!" you may as well just call him down. You'll make more off him than raising and blowing him off his hand. Against an unknown though, I think raising is the better play.

I'd certainly like to hear some arguments against this, though.

KoW

kurto · #6 03-23-2005, 05:08 PM

""If you get against the right person who is going to continuously bet his J5o..." I think the $50 NL players at Pokerstars were a little consistantly better then $25NL. I think you would be less likely at PS$50NL to find someone calling a 6x bb raise with J5os. (I know you were just making up an example. You have to make some guesses... do you think you're playing an idiot or a good player. I am less likely to assume complete and total idiocy until I learn otherwise at PS $50NL.)

BB's play could also be exactly how someone might play pocket Qs-As in the face of an aggressive raise headsup. I've seen smooth calls on these a lot and seen people get burned.

I can't decide if I like your counter-raise. Let's assume everyone has full buy-in... You're basically reraising 1/3 of your stack... what if the guy calls? What's your turn and river play? With your reraise, you have %40 of your stack in play... I'm feeling close to pot committed with any significant reraise.

I know I'm babbling... but this is almost coinflip decision. You have no read whatsoever. The guy's overbet is curious. But it could mean aces, a set or top pair. In the absence of a read, its just a guess.

KowCiller · #7 03-23-2005, 05:45 PM

Ok so perhaps J5o was a bit of an exaggeration [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] I guess my point is really that I've never seen someone at PP25 or PP50 overbet the pot with a hand that beats hero there. I just haven't seen it.

I have seen it happen with many hands that hero is beating... AJ, KJ, QJ, A9, 88, QT, etc. Sure, a tricky opponent might smooth call preflop with AA or KK, but then again, wouldn't that tricky opponent go for a checkraise or check-call for value on the flop assuming missed AK/AQ/smaller pair?

It's entirely possible I just don't have enough hands logged on PP to run across this line in this spot with a set/AA/KK... Does this happen on Stars regularly?

Perhaps I've fallen victim to the "assume clueless until proven otherwise" when playing against an unknown on party?

Edit: In an above response I mention a line incase he calls my raise...You're right though, this hand is very opponent dependent, and without a read you have to go with an educated guess against a typical player on your site of choice...

The problem with not raising and just calling down is that if you keep calling potsize (or more) bets, you're going to end up with your stack committed anyway. At least with a raise, you have an opportunity to laydown to his push and put the decision in his hands...

KoW

kurto · #8 03-23-2005, 06:09 PM

"I guess my point is really that I've never seen someone at PP25 or PP50 overbet the pot with a hand that beats hero there." I have, if the overbetter puts the pf raiser on a high pair and knows he's not going to be able to lay it down. I wouldn't say I see it a lot. I agree that a CR would be the better play.

Overbets just smell fishy. But sometimes, I see people overbet because they think it will be called. (I might be overthinking now.) But there's something to the psychology of making ridiculous bets with the nuts BECAUSE its seen as such a terrible bet. I think that's why a lot of people open all in with pocket aces. I think its idiotic. But against bad players, you sometimes see 1-3 people calling it?!?! So maybe I'm the idiot.

I'm rambling again.

I think you're likely right.

The odd thing... a bad player with a great hand might play it this way. Furthermore, a bad player with a weak hand would also overbet. A good player with a monster would not (unless he's playing mindgames).

"Does this happen on Stars regularly?" I don't know that the situation comes up regularly (not as much overbetting in general on Stars".... but I've definitely seen it played this way with someone who smoothcalled a monster.

You have to admit it would be somewhat tricky... since you're initial reaction is that the person overbetting isn't likely to have the better hand... overbetting may be a good way of inducing a call. It only has to be called occasionally to be profitable.

"Perhaps I've fallen victim to the "assume clueless until proven otherwise" when playing against an unknown on party?" Last night...FIRST hand at Partypoker... I'm dealt pocket Aces in the BB. 4-5 limpers to me, I raise it to 8xbb. Get 2 callers. Flop comes K1010. I make a pot sized bet... one fold and one minraise... (which is 1/3 of his stack... he's got one third left) Since I'm not going to fold, I put him all in... Of course he had Pocket Ks and limped on the cutoff. Luckily, he only had half a buyin so I only lost a lil' more then half my stack.

Point is... I was 90% the guy had AK and wrongly never considered that I was beat... because he was a party player on the shortstack. I played it idiotically because I was too arrogant to consider his play.

I figure you're better off giving a stranger the benefit of the doubt... online, it only takes 10 minutes or so to see if they're LAG or tight.

Man, I can babble on and on.

Sadico · #9 03-23-2005, 06:09 PM

we both had $100

kurto · #10 03-23-2005, 06:16 PM

Seems only Kowciller and I have 2 thoughts about it.

The more I think about it, the more I lean towards agreeing with Kowciller. The overbet screams "don't call me." In which case a reraise is the right next move.

I have seen the overbet used when someone hits really strong, but you're only going to know that with a read on the person.

His bet smells.