Is This a Bad Chase?

nokona13 · #1 03-22-2005, 02:13 PM

Edit: I want advice on the flop here and on proposed line if I hit on the turn and your advice was to call the flop. Two cases: make the straight with a spade, and with another suit. I admit the turn chase was poor and I was calling cause I was pissed about a bad beat from another game, if I remember right...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

Button (t845)
SB (t785)
Hero (t785)
UTG (t785)
UTG+1 (t770)
UTG+2 (t1000)
MP1 (t1055)
MP2 (t790)
MP3 (t440)
CO (t745)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls t15, MP1 calls t15, 1 fold, MP3 calls t15, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t75) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 bets t45, MP1 calls t45, MP3 folds, SB folds, Hero calls t45.

Turn: (t210) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets t100, Hero calls t100, UTG+2 folds.

River: (t410) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets t250, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t660

Apathy · #2 03-22-2005, 02:20 PM

Check fold flop, failing that, check fold turn.

Don't run huge bluffs early in SNGs without a great read on an opponent, and I mean GREAT.

nokona13 · #3 03-22-2005, 02:31 PM

Okay, I just threw in the possible push anyway on the turn as I was writing this. I didn't actually consider it.

But seriously check/fold the flop? I have to put in 45 to a 165 pot, giving me almost 4:1 just in pot odds for my OESD. I know it's easy to overvalue OESD's, as I clearly did here on the turn, but I have to assume I can count on the implied c/r on the turn if I hit my straight to make the flop call profitable. I readily admit a poor call on the turn. Am I still wrong on the flop?

BradleyT · #4 03-22-2005, 02:45 PM

check folding the flop isn't right.

shoeman · #5 03-22-2005, 03:05 PM

I think I call the flop bet and fold the turn. If there was one more caller or I was closing the betting, I may consider calling the turn. (Probably not though) Under most circumstances I like to avoid bleeding too many chips on draws and opt to save them for the purpose of stealing blinds later.

rickr · #6 03-22-2005, 03:11 PM

My way of thinking early is: You only have 3 clean outs, the 3 non spade aces. Anything else and you have to be worried. The 6 isn't clean, so you need to discount it. So count it as 1. So 4 outs total. 47/4 or basically 12/1. You are getting 3.66/1 to play. Dump it without a great read. Also with 2 spades, even if you hit your straight on the turn, you have to worry about the river redraw. Much better places to make a play in my book.

Later,
Rick

nokona13 · #7 03-22-2005, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My way of thinking early is: You only have 3 clean outs, the 3 non spade aces. Anything else and you have to be worried. The 6 isn't clean, so you need to discount it. So count it as 1. So 4 outs total. 47/4 or basically 12/1. You are getting 3.66/1 to play. Dump it without a great read. Also with 2 spades, even if you hit your straight on the turn, you have to worry about the river redraw. Much better places to make a play in my book.

Later,
Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

Why isn't the 6 (non-spade) clean? I'm giving myself 6-8 outs here...

rickr · #8 03-22-2005, 03:31 PM

The 6 of spades would give someone the flush, as would the ace of spades, so there's no way they are clean. The 6 also makes you the non nut straight, so none of the 6's are actually clean. The 8 on the board throws up a red flag. 57,67,47, anyone that got close to that flop is going to stay for the same implied odds you are, so you really need the nut straight to chase it. I'm talking about this early in a tourney. I would rather play this hand against a preflop raiser than a bunch of limpers. At least you can discount those hands listed above. There are 8 cards in the deck that make your straight. 2 of them also make someone a flush. Three of the others also could make someone a larger flush. So 3 clean, and 5 that have to be discounted. How much you discount them is up to you. Even if you only discount it by 2 and give yourself 6 clean outs, your getting 8 to 1 with a redraw to the flush if you hit on the turn. Still think your way better off waiting.

Later,
Rick

BradleyT · #9 03-22-2005, 03:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The 6 of spades would give someone the flush, as would the ace of spades, so there's no way they are clean. The 6 also makes you the non nut straight, so none of the 6's are actually clean. The 8 on the board throws up a red flag. 57,67,47, anyone that got close to that flop is going to stay for the same implied odds you are, so you really need the nut straight to chase it. I'm talking about this early in a tourney. I would rather play this hand against a preflop raiser than a bunch of limpers. At least you can discount those hands listed above. There are 8 cards in the deck that make your straight. 2 of them also make someone a flush. Three of the others also could make someone a larger flush. So 3 clean, and 5 that have to be discounted. How much you discount them is up to you. Even if you only discount it by 2 and give yourself 6 clean outs, your getting 8 to 1 with a redraw to the flush if you hit on the turn. Still think your way better off waiting.

Later,
Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

How do 47, 57, 67 make a straight on a 2368 board?

nokona13 · #10 03-22-2005, 03:44 PM

[quote How do 47, 57, 67 make a straight on a 2368 board?

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts exactly.

Bradley, any thoughts on what to do if I hit my straight on a non-spade? I have trouble extracting money from people with flush draws on the board. Do you just charge and hope they call with the draw and miss or call with something worse? Or do you maybe check, hoping to c/r and accepting a flush draw might get a free card?