KQo, a little post flop play

Scuba Chuck · #1 03-22-2005, 12:28 AM

What's your line here on the river?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (7 handed) converter

MP2 (t1180)
CO (t760)
Button (t400)
SB (t1585)
Hero (t1585)
UTG (t1615)
MP1 (t875)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, CO raises to t45, Button calls t45, 1 fold, Hero calls t30.

Flop: (t145) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets t150, CO folds, Button calls t150.

Turn: (t445) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (t445) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: t445

Results:
 villain had 8s 8h

Benholio · #2 03-22-2005, 12:33 AM

I might try a smallish value bet (like 100-150). I don't mind checking/calling a small bet either, though, just in case he checked behind with the flush somehow.

microbet · #3 03-22-2005, 01:04 AM

Ok, I know you are talking about postflop, but I fold KQo against a raise in the BB in the first level. Am I making a mistake?

I play the flop exactly the same way.

I know you're supposed to play what the player is likely to have, not what they should have, but I don't know why he would flat call the flop without a straight or flush draw, so I would want to check the turn too. However, he only has 205 chips left and there is no way he will be ahead of you and not bet it, either now or on the river, and his bet will be a bluff half the time, so I'm not folding anyway. Since you don't even have one diamond, put him all in on the turn.

If he had a deeper stack, I would check the turn and maybe the river too.

adanthar · #4 03-22-2005, 01:20 AM

See, it's hands like *these* (out of position, marginal to start with, raise in front, do not have an ace in them, unsuited) you should be folding PF.

Once you get here I want to go ahead and checkraise the flop or just bet 100 and fold to a raise.

The shutdown on the turn is good but I think you need to bet/fold the river. Of course, the problem is that you've made the pot too big with your overbet...but had you bet 100 it would've been 345, making a 150-ish river bet in order.

edit: Wait, I thought it was the CO...go ahead and put the button all in. He's coldcalled two bets so far and has already lost half his chips this early, so he's probably a fish with QJ.

Scuba Chuck · #5 03-22-2005, 01:39 AM

Adanthar, I tend to play some of these hands when I have a significant chip position. I'm pretty good at getting away from hands. But agreed, I don't have position here. Had the raise come from anywhere earlier than CO, I would have folded this hand.

In this hand, I really wanted to see a cheap showdown, and I was planning on check-calling a smallish bet.

John Hurst · #6 03-22-2005, 02:09 AM

I bet 150 as a blocking/value bet. If he comes over the top you have to give him credit for the flush or a gutsy bluff. I think this bet gets called enough at the lower levels to be +EV. If I'm last to act I definitely check behind though.

curtains · #7 03-22-2005, 02:44 AM

Checking the turn and river are clearly wrong. The guy has 200 more chips, and hes a partypoker idiot. Way way way too passive to play like that.

Benholio · #8 03-22-2005, 02:48 AM

I just noticed the guy only had 200 chips left. Curtains is right.

adanthar · #9 03-22-2005, 02:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Adanthar, I tend to play some of these hands when I have a significant chip position. I'm pretty good at getting away from hands. But agreed, I don't have position here. Had the raise come from anywhere earlier than CO, I would have folded this hand.

In this hand, I really wanted to see a cheap showdown, and I was planning on check-calling a smallish bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way I figure out whether I want to call a raise with a hand is pretty simple: I put him on a generic read (AA-TT/AK-AQ, that plus Broadways and pairs, two cards, something in between, etc.) and then figure out whether I can play to take his stack if I hit.

KQo out of position is not something I can generally take a stack if I hit a K with, so the answer is no. QJs? Iffy but possible. JTs? Maybe. 22? I'm in there. But the real point is that where the raise comes from doesn't make much difference; you have to check/fold any flop you miss, when you hit you lose as often as you win (sometimes to KJo that overplays his hand and forces you to fold), and you can't play it strongly enough to take his stack, so there's no real point defending. Ya dig?

Anyhow, as I was saying: If the button pushes the river, you may have to call, and the button seems like a calling station, so I bet. It's a thin bet but that's one of those things you signed up for when you defended this hand.

The Yugoslavian · #10 03-22-2005, 03:11 AM

Preflop: I fold (surprise, surprise). Seriously though, your position is awful and are in against a raise so I think even Phil Van flop-a-lot would quite possibly fold here.

Flop: Okay, I do like this although I would most likely bet a bit less - perhaps 2/3 of the pot.

Turn: check here seems fine although given his stack you might as well bet. I don't think you're gaining value by checking here (perhaps since you maybe can induce some hands you have beat to go allin that would otherwise fold) since he's most likely going to have to call your allin once he's called so much of his stack on the flop.

River: Yeah, so I'd just put villian in here for all but perhaps one or two of his chips. He's chosen to already call off 1/2 his stack with whatever he's got and has shown weakness....I think you'll get value off of your bet here.

Yugoslav
PS Folding pre-flop here increases Shania, which should not be underestimated.
PPS Ya heard?
[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]