I chicken out on the river

soah · #1 03-21-2005, 02:26 PM

Not a low-stakes hand, but it's a simple hand against a very weak opponent and can possibly be interesting.

Live 5/10

Asian lady who isn't very good limps on my right, I limp with AhJh, a couple others limp. Flop is JTx 2 diamonds, checked to me and I bet $40, Asian lady is the only caller. Turn is offsuit jack, she checks to me and I bet $100, she calls. River is a baby diamond. She checks. She has $350 left and I have her covered. I check.

I don't have a specific read on her other than that she's not good. She doesn't protect her cards when she looks at them and seems to just be playing to relax and have fun and pass time rather than to be really competitive or really gamboool it up. She's not a calling station or anything; she is simply an average weak player.

Oh and as for me, I've been playing tight and my bet into multiple opponents on the flop should be respected.

kurto · #2 03-21-2005, 02:34 PM

I don't see a problem with the river chickening. I have seen many players check the nuts to the aggressor.

10-j is so common. A flush just made it.

One could argue for a bet... but, I'm no mathmetician... you only have to bet once, lose all your stack be put on tilt and feel like an idiot for betting into the nuts to ruin your game for the rest of that night.

Isnt' this one of those cases where you're likely to only be called by a better hand?

soah · #3 03-21-2005, 02:37 PM

Don't worry, I'd already lost my stack and felt like an idiot, so doing it a second time wouldn't make me feel any worse.

PinkSteel · #4 03-21-2005, 03:04 PM

I would make a modest bet on the river. She's probably on a draw and will (probably) fold it, but if she's holding a PP and just can't let it go, there's a good chance she pays off. And given the range of hands a weak player could have here, the simple odds that you are beat by a flush (and hence throwing the bet away) look low.

Tilt · #5 03-21-2005, 03:25 PM

I think you need to bet this. Based on your description she may call you down with a weaker J or even a T. If she comes over the top you will have an easy fold. I would bet whatever you are willing to call, fold if she comes over the top.

I think checking against this player is possibly a lost opportunity. But it sounds like betting as a block is unecessary.

edge · #6 03-21-2005, 03:36 PM

I check this through, but I am a wuss and I need to value bet more often. I'm not sure if this is the place to do it though.

dtbog · #7 03-21-2005, 03:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But it sounds like betting as a block is unecessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably, because the villain acted before the hero. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Tilt · #8 03-21-2005, 03:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But it sounds like betting as a block is unecessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably, because the villain acted before the hero. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

dtbog · #9 03-21-2005, 03:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I check.

[/ QUOTE ]

I definitely understand the merits of checking behind. My only question is this:

...how weak is this player? I can think of all sorts of "weak player" classifications, and many of them wouldn't be checking a flush here. River checks with a made hand are relatively advanced, IMO -- this would mean that the player acting first is thinking relatively in-depth about your hand and your actions, not simply her own.

Also, many weak players ALWAYS c/r their flopped flush draws.

I'm not saying you made the wrong decision, but I could see this as a missed value bet.

-DB

soah · #10 03-21-2005, 04:11 PM

I think I have to respectfully disagree with most of your analysis. Checking the river when you've made your hand is not an advanced play. Advanced players know that their opponent will gladly take a free showdown with most marginal holdings. Trying to checkraise the river when you hit an obvious draw is a play that poor players make... which is why I thought that she might have hit her flush. =p (Although I will grant that at very high levels, sometimes checking the nuts on the river is necessary for various reasons. But she was nowhere near that level, and these circumstances were hardly correct for it.)

Also, I've never seen a weak player checkraise a flopped flush draw. In fact, making that move would pretty much entirely exclude them from being a weak player in the first place. And considering the stack sizes and my table image and my position (betting with people still left to act behind me), checkraising there on a draw would be absolutely horrible. There aren't many hands I'd bet there which can't handle a checkraise (although in this specific instance, I happened to have one).