Starting hand stereotypes

[albin]

Hello!
I looking into make up a table for "reveres starting hands", a chart that can used then you have make fast decisions only considering a players VPIP and PRF which often is the case then you play multiple tables (using PW or GT). I know hold'em is a very complex game and all players have different styles and so on. Another thing is that players adapt after the table/players as well but at the smaller limits there are a large numbers of players not taking in this to considerations. This is example how you could use the chart:

Example 1:
Player x is limping UTG
Player x total VPIP = 30%
That means that he limp with 18% of those hands UTG and 18% of the best hands would be Sklanskys starting hands 1-3

Example 2:
Player y is rising on the button
Player y total VPIP =25% and PRF 5%
PRF 5% means that he raising 7% on the button that would be Sklansky's starting hands 1
(The stats in those two examples are not relevant)

To make up the chart I need stats on the average position stats adjustment for both limping and rising, people at higher limits are probably a bit more aware of position value so this would be another thing to take into consideration. However I like to hear what you think a about this idea, maybe it would not be a chart that you look at in every single hand but it might be fun or even useful to look at ones in a wile?

It would also be great if any one could give me some toughs at what's:
*A good way of calculating the position adjustment. (Position VPIP / Total VPIP maybe?)
*How the position adjustment will be different for players with low vs high VPIP. (Maybe it would be more or less the same)
*A good group of hand blocks for both raising and limping (was think of use Sklansky's starting hands and maybe also blocks with any pair, suited connector etc.)
* Would such a chart be more usefully in 6max vs. Full ring, Limit vs. NL

Any comments are welcome!

[jojobinks]

if you can turn this into a chart, you'll be the most powerful poker player ALIVE!

i don't think you will do so, effectively.

[johnc]

Maybe one could start with a set of deuce to 7 starting hand recommendations (if such an animal exists) and use your data criteria to refine and tweek them. Seems quite a daunting challenge but I'm sure there are many quite capable posters who have that data and would be up to it.

[theRealMacoy]

Albin,

Power to you dude!

The first time I put together my own 6max chart I found the number of variables needed for inclusions was almost too much. The factors you are talking about incorporating will make the possible variations needed for inclusion, large to say the least.

If anything the exercise itself will be well worth the effort as you will really grind out many situations, even if it doesn't titrate down into a chart.

cheers,
the Real Macoy

[Brom]

I tried to do something like this myself once, but found it too complicated with all the variables I was trying to incorporate into it.

The main problem is how diferent people value position. Some people don't even consider what position they are in when they enter the hand, i.e. they'll play 30% of hands UTG, 30% on the button, and the same hands in every position in between. Other players overvalue their position. They might have a 20% VP$IP, but they'll only play Sklansky group 1 hands UTG, and they will play any two suited cards on the button.

I think that the idea you are working on would work best in full limit ring games. It is the most consistent, mathematical, and cut and dry way to play, i.e. you will get the most amount of people adhering to a guideline to play by. Shorthanded games and no limit games are much more liable to changes in starting hand requirements based on subtle variables that arise during gameplay.

[Nomad84]

I have a cheat sheet that is basically the starting hand requirements from SSH written on a whiteboard that I keep in front of me. For certain people whose stats appear to be roughly in agreement with this type of preflop play, I look at their "hands raised with." If these are pretty solid hands and not just junk, I watch their showdowns for a while. If these hands are also what they "should" be, I start using the charts to help determine their possible starting hands. This has helped me several times to get out of the way of strong hands. This has saved me a fair bit of money, but I'm careful not to just blindly make assumptions about people I've never played before based on their stats.