Checking Behind Turns Versus TAGs

gaming_mouse · #1 03-17-2005, 05:53 AM

Here is a hand against against a TAG that I botched nicely. This guy had a turn AF of 6 after about 30 hands. Clearly it was idiotic to bet, and I should have checked behind. Assuming that I did, would you c/call the river, or c/fold it?

In general, should it be standard practice to check behind versus TAGgy players who like to c/r? Let's assume they do it both as a bluff and for value. Obviously this kind of play puts the TAGs opponents (me, in this hand) to a decision -- they either bet and risk losing an extra BB when behind, or risk giving up a free card when ahead. Which is worse? How would analyze the situation (hand reading + math) on the turn in this particular case?

Also, I challenge anyone to come up with a line that loses more chips than mine.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5.16 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero calls.

River: (9.16 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.16 BB

Shillx · #2 03-17-2005, 06:06 AM

Checking behind is too risky imo. With TT there are just too many ways you can offer him a free card. When he check/raises the turn and the river comes an ace, I think you can find a fold. Even if he has something like AK [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] you are now beat.

Brad

PancakeBoy · #3 03-17-2005, 06:09 AM

Fold the turn! What are ya doing....u have only 2 outs

Alexthegreat · #4 03-17-2005, 06:10 AM

Against a TAG I'm folding to the checkraise, or at the most checkfolding the river...He's pretty much owned you at that point if you pay him off...

gaming_mouse · #5 03-17-2005, 06:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Checking behind is too risky imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? so you like my turn bet, but just think i should have folded the river?

the thing is... i don't see him folding to my turn bet, because of the steal war thing going on. so i'm actually not risking much with the free card -- i'm only missing a bet the times i am ahead. whereas the times i am behind, i lose 2 BB.

so do we think i am ahead here, after his flop call, at least 1/3 of the time?

Alexthegreat · #6 03-17-2005, 06:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In general, should it be standard practice to check behind versus TAGgy players who like to c/r? Let's assume they do it both as a bluff and for value. Obviously this kind of play puts the TAGs opponents (me, in this hand) to a decision -- they either bet and risk losing an extra BB when behind, or risk giving up a free card when ahead. Which is worse? How would analyze the situation (hand reading + math) on the turn in this particular case?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have any math figures for you, but if you can bet and fold to a checkraise, it's the best line...you won't lose any more than one bet, and you won't give him a free card...If you are worried about being bluffed off hands too easily, call down every once in a while...

gaming_mouse · #7 03-17-2005, 06:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Against a TAG I'm folding to the checkraise, or at the most checkfolding the river...He's pretty much owned you at that point if you pay him off...

[/ QUOTE ]

well, he's also owned you if you he pushes you off the best hand w/ a c/r bluff, which this guy was capable of.

thinking in terms of being owned will probably make you play emotionally and make poor decisions. i think it's better to think about it objectively, and understand that sometimes you get owned by making the right play. not that i played this hand well, mind you...

gaming_mouse · #8 03-17-2005, 06:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you are worried about being bluffed off hands too easily, call down every once in a while...

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the whole thing. how often is once in a while? when do you decide to do it? keep in mind that at 3/6 turn raise bluffs are VERY common.

Alexthegreat · #9 03-17-2005, 06:24 AM

I know i know, I'm not mocking you or anything, it just looks like he's got you in bad shape with his turn play.....How often do you think he would follow through with a bluff turn raise on a blank river?? I think you can call him down if it's a blank, but I think the A helps him most of the time if he was indeed just running a high card bluff on the turn

Alexthegreat · #10 03-17-2005, 06:29 AM

Well, if they are more common then legit turn check-raises, then you call them down....

I'm not sure if you can figure that out, but with a super high TA factor, which I'm guessing is aggression? (don't have pokertracker)

I guess I would call him down if I'd seen him bluff raise with worse than A-high...(this is the other problem with this hand..the A may have bailed him out on the river)