Warning a Friend- Long, possibly trivial

TwoOuter · #1 09-30-2002, 05:48 PM

I've been playing hold'em and stud for a couple of years at various Bay Area clubs. Last weekend I was playing with an elderly gentleman who plays about 3 or 4 times a month. He's very nice, not too talkative but friendly. I don't really know him, but we usually exchange greetings and maybe a few comments here and there. He's also a consistent loser.

So he's losing pretty bad again when a couple of guys I recognize who play together join our game. They take down a couple of pots he's involved in, laughing one time and saying over and over to my "friend," What, you still don't believe me? while scooping up a huge pot where one of them had flopped trips with 9-3 offsuit after calling 3 bets cold pre-flop (my friend had pocket aces, of course).

I'm in seat 4, my friend in seat 3, the two other guys in seats 7 and 8. As the abovementioned chip scooping was taking place, I turned to get up and whispered to my friend, Be careful- these guys play together. He said thanks, I got up and came back a few minutes later, and then about 5 minutes later my friend left, much earlier than he normally would have.

No one else at the table, I believe, heard my comment. Another friend at the table, however, who's a big winner in these games and who was killing the game this night, guessed what had occurred and later asked me about it. I told him the truth. He said I shouldn't have done that, as the elderly gentleman would certainly have lost more that night, and may play less or elsewhere in the future.

Any thoughts about this situation or how I handled it? Or comments about cheating in Bay Area clubs? From a purely monetary aspect, I of course understand that what I did doesn't make sense. But it made me sick to watch these guys laugh at this man, who was playing honestly while they weren't.

By the way: It's been my experience that regular players-I'm talking about guys who play 300+ days a year- are given considerable leeway by floormen and dealers. Especially later at night, as the games thin out. Complaints to management, in my opinion, are ineffectual. Many people are also simply oblivious to what goes on.

brad · #2 09-30-2002, 08:10 PM

can you describe exactly how they play together?

brad

TwoOuter · #3 09-30-2002, 09:12 PM

Cheating takes place in a variety of forms, most of it extremely unsophisticated. There's the under the table foot tap, where much information can be passed very quickly. Chip fondling. Card holding. Non-verbal and verbal cues. I've used all of these with various players at these clubs. I don't anymore.

TwoOuter · #4 09-30-2002, 09:37 PM

Brad,

I should have been more clear in my initial post. I didn't mean to imply that they cheated on the 9-3 offsuit hand.

Steve H.

HDPM · #5 10-02-2002, 05:29 PM

Ironic you seem more concerned with warning somebody about cheating than you were about participating in cheating yourself. I hope this is not really the case, and it is better that you no longer cheat.

TwoOuter · #6 10-03-2002, 03:30 AM

Yes, I certainly see the irony of it, and I hope I don't sound self-righteous or anything about not cheating. Let me explain a little. There were a couple of reasons I cheated. I'm a pretty friendly guy at the tables, and I get along pretty well with almost everyone. Imagine my surprise when some of my friends started tipping me off when they had great hands. As I observed various relationships between players, I quickly deduced that if they were signaling me, they were definitely signaling their closer friends also.

This lead to conversations with some players while outside the clubs either smoking or just discussing "strategy." A few people described "team play" strategy to me, and basically wanted to know if I was interested. I was more interested in learning about how the games were being played, and what I was up against playing in public cardrooms, than I was in the actual cheating.

The proportion of people who cheat is very small, but they're out there. It affects the games, and I'm glad I learned a little about what's going on. I'm a little surprised that no one has really commented on this issue. Maybe the people I usually play with don't visit this site, or maybe this is the wrong forum for this subject, or maybe there's just no interest. I noticed that nobody responded to the post asking for information about SF Bay Area clubs, so maybe that's it.

Steve

HDPM · #7 10-03-2002, 10:09 AM

Most team players don't post about it. That's probably why you don't see more about it. It is good to expose what they do.

TwoOuter · #8 10-04-2002, 01:20 AM

That's true. I guess I was also surprised that someone who sensed the occasional questionable play, or soft playing, or even the obvious signaling between some players, wouldn't have chimed in. Besides learning the fundamentals, figuring out who I want at my table and who I don't want is the biggest reason I can beat the game now, and recognizing certain relationships in certain card rooms is a part of this.

Thanks for your comments.